When it comes to Aliens you have the old way of thinking vs the new way

When you look at the debate today, some people act like we're still in the 1960's and we don't have all of the evidence that has accumulated over the years. So whether it's debating Pluto, Mars or Kepler, you still hear the age old claim:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

The reason that old way of thinking doesn't make any sense is because talking about the existence of extraterrestrial life is no longer an extraordinary claim.

Today you have exoplanets, water on Mars and other planets, growing list of extremophiles, finding a planet called earth's twin, finding out that most planets are earth sized planets vs. Jupiter sized planets, building blocks of life, Hawking saying Aliens almost certainly exist, building blocks of life on comets and more.

All of the evidence is pointing to a universe that's friendly to life and actually favors conditions that would allow life to exist. There's little if any evidence that would prohibit life from forming on other planets.

The first announcement should be about microbial life which I suspect is very abundant throughout the universe and I don't think that will be a very surprising announcement based on all of the evidence that points in that direction. It will be a big announcement but it shouldn't be surprising to anyone who has looked at the available evidence. It's overwhelming in it's support for life existing on other planets.

Once they announce the finding of microbial life it will be a no brainer that intelligent life also exists it's just less abundant than microbial life.The thinking has been that intelligent life forms through a series of accidents and we're just very lucky. That doesn't hold water when you look at recent discoveries. The universe is fine tuned to produce life just like it produces stars, comets and moons.

Life forms then adapts to it's environment. The only thing that's partly random is how life adapts to each environment it finds itself in. But these environments aren't random because the universe favors earth sized planets over Jupiter sized planets.

You would then have to say that earth is the only planet in the universe that has the environment for intelligent life to evolve. Again, that doesn't hold water with the evidence and the fact that the universe favors earth sized planets.

We're in the infancy of exoplanet exploration and we're already finding earth like planets that are in the habitable zone.

www.space.com...

To expand this even further and make it more striking, we're finding these things already based on our assumption that intelligent life in the universe must evolve in the same way we did. So we're already finding a needle in a haystack but the haystack could be much bigger and the needle much broader. We could find intelligent life could evolve in conditions that are very different from earths. This makes our recent discoveries even more remarkable.

The extraordinary claim is, we're alone in the universe.

a reply to: neoholographic

Your "extraordinary claim" is not the subject of most of the debates here.

I seldom see anyone making that claim, which happens to be unprovable.

a reply to: draknoir2

Wrong on all fronts. First there's people who still make this claim. Here's 2 thread titles.

Forget about ET - We are alone in the Universe!

We are alone in the galaxy

But that wasn't the point. The point is, it has become an extraordinary claim because of all of the evidence that points in a different direction.

a reply to: neoholographic

I said said most and seldom, whereas you said all. Telling difference.

The unprovability of the absence of intelligent life elsewhere in the entire universe claim is not proof to the contrary.

a reply to: draknoir2

What???

Quote me where I said all as it pertains to being alone in the universe. And if you quote me do so in it's entirety not just a slither of the what I said so you can debate this nonsense out of context.

I think we know, and have known, from the time we developed instinct, and then intuition, there's intelligent life throughout the universe. It may not sound very scientific, but all science is going to do in this case, is confirm what we've known for a very long time as a species. As you've stated in your OP. The evidence already points in that direction.
The question then becomes, what happens when we allow ourselves to accept what we already know? It may not seem like much, but the truth is, it will be a paradigm changing event. One that will effect the course of our future in more ways than we can now foresee.

a reply to: neoholographic

Forget about ET - We are alone in the Universe!

We are alone in the galaxy

First thread is from 2011. Second one, the op is actually about how we are not alone.

I dont know of anyone that will argue that we are alone.

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: draknoir2

What???

Quote me where I said all as it pertains to being alone in the universe. And if you quote me do so in it's entirety not just a slither of the what I said so you can debate this nonsense out of context.

The point here is that you're not making much sense. You're being Captain Obvious. and despite the fact that you can find a couple of people who think we're alone in the universe, most everyone, including the Pope, believes otherwise. It's a no-brainer that there's life out there. So suggesting a whole lot of people don't is setting up a Straw Man that you can proceed to criticize. In the two threads you posted (but conveniently did not link to) the vast majority of respondents took issue with the OP. You failed to mention that, too.

So the issue becomes: What are you bringing to the table? About as much as Fox News when they excitedly told us beforehand that NASA was going to hold a press conference about a stupendous earth-shattering discovery! Hold onto your hats, everyone! This is going to be BIG!!

There's water on Mars!

Duh. We knew that already.

a reply to: schuyler

What??

You're making no sense whatsoever. Sometimes people on ATS make up things to debate about out of whole cloth.

The fact is, when we debate these issues, the term extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence is often still used. That quote makes no sense because talking about life existing in the universe isn't an extraordinary claim and the growing evidence has turned the claim that we're alone in the universe into an extraordinary claim.

It's simply an old claim that's still made in these debates.

The fact that saying Aliens exist is no longer an extraordinary claim is grounbreaking. You tie that into all of the evidence that has been discovered that fits are very narrow view of life in the universe and it's even more remarkable.

a reply to: neoholographic

You've lost your way. Earth has algae and microbes in higher abundance than primates. For 4billion years there was nothing smarter than a damned plant or bug.

Go look at Fermi if you have to. It helps perspective. There can be thousnds of planets or moons or moonlets, anything in a habitable zone. They could have life on a portion of them and lets say they do. How many will have the conditions to be cosy enough for evolution to get to "intelligetn life?"

Splitting hairs here and not to cause a fight. what are u meaning on "intelligent?" We talking rat smart or hawking in a wheelchair smart??!? Dig your views man and yall could be right.

originally posted by: Klassified
I think we know, and have known, from the time we developed instinct, and then intuition, there's intelligent life throughout the universe. It may not sound very scientific, but all science is going to do in this case, is confirm what we've known for a very long time as a species. As you've stated in your OP. The evidence already points in that direction.
The question then becomes, what happens when we allow ourselves to accept what we already know? It may not seem like much, but the truth is, it will be a paradigm changing event. One that will effect the course of our future in more ways than we can now foresee.

Good points and it will be a paradigm changing event especially if we get a signal back from SETI that supports that Kepler may have spotted some sort of Dyson swarm.

a reply to: neoholographic

The fact that saying Aliens exist is no longer an extraordinary claim is grounbreaking.

Are you talking about microbial life or intelligent life visiting us? Or do you see no difference?

What type of extraordinary evidence could possibly show that life doesn't exist in the universe?

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

You said:

What type of extraordinary evidence could possibly show that life doesn't exist in the universe?

It doesn't need to be extraordinary, it could just be evidence that shows the universe favors Jupiter sized planets over earth sized planets and earth sized planets were rare in the universe.

If this is what we would have found, then the case for life existing in the universe would be weakened. This isn't what we found. We found the universe favors earth sized planets over Jupiter sized planets and we have already found a planet being labeled as earth's twin.

a reply to: neoholographic
So what rules out life existing on Jupiter sized planets?

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: neoholographic
So what rules out life existing on Jupiter sized planets?

Nothing.

You're debating this all or nothing notion that makes no sense. There isn't any evidence that will show life doesn't exist in the universe. There is evidence that would show it's less likely that life exist as we know it in the universe.

If we would have found the universe favors Jupiter sized planets over earth sized planets then the headlines would have been, the search for extraterrestrial life in the universe takes a hit. There's no evidence that intelligent life can evolve on Jupiter sized planets but there's evidence that it can evolve on earth sized planets. If there were more Jupiter sized planets out there and the universe favored these planets then that would weaken the case for intelligent alien life unless you have evidence that intelligent life can form on Jupiter sized planets.

a reply to: neoholographic

You're debating this all or nothing notion that makes no sense.

I am? Where? I asked a couple of questions so I can understand what your argument is.
Isn't your point that people argue that life doesn't exist out there and that's an extraordinary claim and they require evidence to support such a claim? If its not, what is your point? what evidence rules out life in the universe?

There isn't any evidence that will show life doesn't exist in the universe.

Yes, that would be impossible.

There is evidence that would show it's less likely that life exist as we know it in the universe.

Like what?

There's no evidence that intelligent life can evolve on Jupiter sized planets

How many Jupiter sized planets have been visited where no life was found?

a reply to: neoholographic

I think it safe to say that confirming intelligent life elsewhere would certainly be considered extraordinary. Ordinary will come when we've confirmed a few more places.

Intelligent life exists on Earth, outside of humans. Octopus and Dolphins are a great example of high intelligence. Due to their environment, they will never have reason to make use of fire. So they will take an entirely different path from us, due to their environment, and use their intelligence in a completely different way.

A broader problem we face is defining what is intelligence. The octopus, again, doesn't speak. I am not sure we would ever communicate with an octopus, so would really have no way of knowing the true scope of its intellect.

So, say, on Europa...we find something oddly octopus like....how would you identify it as intelligent?

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
So, say, on Europa...we find something oddly octopus like....how would you identify it as intelligent?

If it were able to elude me turning it into grilled exo-octopus with a zesty herb-citrus vinaigrette.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

But living underwater, even with superintelligence it wouldn't know what fire was to become a grilled exooctopus.