We're living in a Germany dominated Europe of disharmony!

First of all this is probably more a post for UK residents, but all views are welcomed, sometimes an outside view is the best.

www.youtube.com...

The wording in the title/subject above are not my words but are taken from this video showing Nigel Farage speaking yesterday in the European Parliament following the joint speech by Merkel/Hollande. Whether you like or loathe NIgel Farage he certainly knows how to give a good speech. Also, whether you support UKIP or not, most have to admit that so far he has been bang on the money with some of his predictions especially with regard to the refugee crisis.

I'm just really interested to know the views of ATS members from the UK with regard to the EU. IF, and its a big IF, we actually get a referendum do you think there will be a brexit or do you think most will vote to remain? If the UK do vote to leave the EU do you think that vote will be honoured or do you believe a brexit will not be forthcoming.

In most of the polls recently the in and out camp seem almost neck and neck, so what do you think it will take to shift that balance on either side? The way things are going do you think we will be the only Country thinking about leaving the EU?

Personally, I think I will vote to leave as the EU ideology does appear on the face of it to be mainly dominated by Germany and to a lesser extent France. However, that isn't to say when the campaign actually sets off I won't be swayed by some of the arguments from the people who think we should remain. I'm very much open to views and ideas from both sides. So I just thought it would be nice to get some opinions from my fellow UK members on ATS and from people from other countries within the EU and outside the EU.

a reply to: anxiouswens

I am not from the UK but for my research on the topic of the EU since their beginnings and what prompted this union, as usual economical reasons, I think in my Very humble opinion that is too much money invested already from the countries or let say the "big money" involved to let the union dissolve without repercussions despise what the people wants.

Now I could be wrong.

Germany and France have always been the masters of the E.U, but Germany certainly seems to be becoming the leading light in Europe and the instigators of the Greeks having to accept a less than helpful bailout.

They are also the instigators of the refugee crisis that is playing out. As soon as they said they would welcome any refugees from Syria, then the flood gates opened.

As for the E.U referendum, well I am in the 'out' camp. As I have previously stated, this has nothing to do with the immigration question, but to have a bunch of unelected law makers, making all the decisions, doesn't sit well with me.

a reply to: anxiouswens


Germany has always wanted to dominate Europe there were two

world wars in an effort to do so. Hitler's perfect Arian race??

They lost both the wars .... so are now doing the

'domination thing' with a more modest softly softly approach??

We (GB/UK) will be better on our own.

a reply to: anxiouswens

My observation would be that if your experience is anything like our experience in the US, when the "Polls" or "Polling Data" reflect a dead heat that typically means the polling data has been manipulated by "those in charge" and that's been done to pre-validate the election results. So my question would be: to what extent are the elections in the UK rigged? If you're doing black box voting, i.e., no one really sees the "counters" counting the votes as registered, then your elections are probably rigged.

If your elections are rigged, the referendum doesn't really matter. You'll get the result that "those in charge" decree you'll get.

Good luck!

Well so far 2 to leave and none to remain. Will be interesting to see how many want to remain if there are more comments. One of the reasons I would like to leave besides making our own laws and being able to protect our borders (to an extent) is because the only people I have heard saying they want to remain so far are the big corporations and people like Richard Branson i.e. the super rich who aren't really affected by the every day life in the UK because they have their own private island!! This is enough to make me think we should leave. Of course, people like Richard Branson are going to want to remain because like he said before the free trade it was very costly doing business with the rest of Europe. For the normal people in the UK think how much use could be made of the billions we are giving a way each year to the EU. Granted we will gain from some of that money being paid but the EU just seems like a bottomless pit of money with a lot of wastage. The money could be better used in our infrastructure and for looking after the citizens of this Country IMO.

When the 'treaty of Rome' was signed, the EU was a trading block, nothing to do with political union, that came later, when the un-elected decided they wanted real power, as they have now, sorry to type this, 'just like the nazi party' tentacles into all walks of life, work, play, fiscal, political, health, agriculture, defence, pensions, you name it, Brussels has a law on it.

originally posted by: eletheia
a reply to: anxiouswens


Germany has always wanted to dominate Europe there were two

world wars in an effort to do so. Hitler's perfect Arian race??

They lost both the wars .... so are now doing the

'domination thing' with a more modest softly softly approach??

We (GB/UK) will be better on our own.

They didn't have to win the wars. They finally learned the old "by submission you conquer" quote was true.

a reply to: TonySWell that's a whole different debate. I know a lot think the Thanet vote was rigged. There was a massive delay on the winner and apparently boxes went missing for 6 hours. Police investigated but closed it down within about 24 hours. Although voting cards are supposed to be kept for 12 months they were destroyed! UKIP won the Council seats, Nigel Farage was well in front in the polls but then lost. So we will never know!

a reply to: anxiouswens

IF, and its a big IF, we actually get a referendum do you think there will be a brexit or do you think most will vote to remain?

What do you mean "IF"? Its going through the House of Lords at the moment

Personally speaking, I cant wait for the referendum and I will voting to leave the EU experiment! The last vote in the seventies was for a "Common Market" and that is where it should have stayed. The UK populace are the only EU citizens that have not had another vote since the referendum.

When you realise things such as the bankers at the ECB have "diplomatic Immunity" and the EU accounts have not been signed off in nearly two decades due to corruption, then you realise that this EU project was not for the citizens, it was for the big corporate elite and their buddy politicians.

The Fourth Reich Is Here and its all gone according to plan from the start and allowing it to continue meant Germany actually won the second world war IMHO!!

a reply to: anxiouswens

Sigh, the old games are still afoot. The U.K., Germany and France. Europe's big three.

Point of fact E.U. or no EU, those three will continue to jockey for power. It seems part of the DNA.

The issue of remaining in the EU, I believe, largely lies with the question of whether that entity can and will survive and flourish. Who runs it is a little less of importance, IMO.

My personal belief is that the EU allows a too large centralized gov't. One that will continue to demand and take more power as time goes by.(Very similar to the U.S. political situation)

Personally, I prefer not to be 'homogenized' into a 'one fits all' collective. All the nations of Europe has attributes and liabilities.

Let me pick which ones to don, not a bunch of bureaucrats in a far off ivory tower.....

a reply to: anxiouswens

Farage was just cherry-picking talking points (again), being the right-winger demagogue he is.

Over the course of the crisis, the European executive has accrued more and more authority. Key decisions are being taken by the council, the commission and ECB – in other words, the very institutions that are either insufficiently legitimated to take such decisions or lack any democratic basis. Streeck and I also share the view that this technocratic hollowing out of democracy is the result of a neoliberal pattern of market-deregulation policies. The balance between politics and the market has come out of sync, at the cost of the welfare state. Where we differ is in terms of the consequences to be drawn from this predicament. I do not see how a return to nation states that have to be run like big corporations in a global market can counter the tendency towards de-democratisation and growing social inequality – something that we also see in Great Britain, by the way. Such tendencies can only be countered, if at all, by a change in political direction, brought about by democratic majorities in a more strongly integrated “core Europe”. The currency union must gain the capacity to act at the supra-national level. In view of the chaotic political process triggered by the crisis in Greece we can no longer afford to ignore the limits of the present method of intergovernmental compromise.

www.theguardian.com...

I don't see how a return to nation states can counter this development either. I would rather suggest the opposite is true, thus we should stand strong and stay together. Running away from problems is obviously not the solution.

a reply to: Cobaltic1978

They are also the instigators of the refugee crisis that is playing out. As soon as they said they would welcome any refugees from Syria, then the flood gates opened.

The southern states have recently opened the "flood-gates", as there were already way too much refugees in Italy, Greece and Spain.

Throughout the whole of 2013, a total of 2,925 vessels of various shapes and sizes landed on Italian shores, carrying about 43,000 people, including nearly 4,000 children.
This represented a rise of 325 per cent on the previous year.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

The number of asylum applications received in 2014 in European Union (EU) Member States has risen by 25 per cent compared to the same period in 2013. A quarter of the applicants are of Afghan, Eritrean or Syrian origin, and a similar proportion are under 18 years of age. There have also been many more asylum applications from stateless people, with an estimated total of 436,000 people across the European Union. Germany continues to be the recipient of the largest number of asylum applications, followed by France, Sweden, Italy and the United Kingdom.

www.unhcr.org...

The UK has become the annoying kid in the back of the classroom.
Of course you guys don't get a leading role or a voice if you want to then here is a fun suggestion:
PARTICIPATE!
Instead of just always bothering the others with unqualified comments...
And i am in general a big fan, but it just keeps getting sillier and sillier to read and here stuff like that. And i am sorry but the brexit won't cause more than a shrug and a meh! from the rest, you know from those who actually are trying to colaborate, the EU...

originally posted by: Peeple
The UK has become the annoying kid in the back of the classroom.
Of course you guys don't get a leading role or a voice if you want to then here is a fun suggestion:
PARTICIPATE!

*PARTICIPATE* You mean as in on equal terms?


Definition>Participate> To take or have a part or share in, as with others;

partakes; share; (usually followed by in)>>

>>To participate in projects

>>To participate in a play

>>To participate in a discussion

>>To participate in a game

>>To participate in decision making


Then there's ... To be dictated to as in>>


>>Impose unelected bureaucrat's on

>>Ride roughshod over

>>Impose ones will on

>>Browbeat/Control/Decree ...

a reply to: Peeple
You are more right than you know. The majority (which happen to be Conservatives) of MEPs are actively, YES, actively go to the EU parliament to either do nothing or disrupt because they want to show the British how bad the EU is.
Our local MEP has actually been on tv and admitted that is what they do because they want us out of the EU.
Now HOW can anyone with those characteristics be going to Brussels and fighting for things that are good for the British people.
Now, why we wont come out. The first big backers of this present UK government are powerful industrialists. They wont want to leave as most of their money is made internationally. But the real trouble for this government is the core of Conservatives and that is the large land owners, the big farmers. And they don't want to come out either. Just where do you think that these large farmers get their money from? I'll give you one guess and it aint the UK. They get hundreds of millions of pounds in subsidies from the EU. If they don't use a field they get "set aside" money, to wet to harvest the crop they get compensation and plough the same crops into the ground, they get paid for the amount of livestock they have, more livestock more compo. The Southern Irish had a very lucrative scam with this by moving large herds of livestock over the border from Northern Ireland to farms in the south to boost the herds for the EU inspectors.
The age old answer "you never see a poor farmer". You do but they are really only the smallholders. The large ones are calways bleating at how poor they are just before the buy their next £30000 range rover.
The real question you should be asking is just what is the ordinary citizens of the other EU countries getting that we are not but what our MEPs should be fighting for. Just one example, ALL pensioners in Spain get half price travel inside their own country whether train or airplane. Now think of a Spaniard living in Teneriffe getting half priced flights to Madrid. A HUGE saving for them. Then ask yourself if you got halfpriced travel from London to Glasgow. But you don't do you because the MEPs don't want you to have ANY benefits from the EU as it would make the EU more attractive to the ordinary man in the street.
I wont go into all the subsidies that you do get like free cavity wall insulation, free loft insulation. help to fit double glazing. Oh you thought it was the UK government picking up that tab. Think again that is EU money.
AND NO WE DON'T WANT TO LEAVE THE EU>

originally posted by: crayzeed


I wont go into all the subsidies that you do get like free cavity wall insulation, free loft insulation. help to fit double glazing. Oh you thought it was the UK government picking up that tab. Think again that is EU money.

And where do you think they get that money from?

They get it from the UK, we pay to be in ... and then they give

some back and tell us HOW WE CAN SPEND it!!!


Somewhat like the 'ordinary' man in the street who works and

pays taxes .... Then gets some returned in *working tax credit"

difference being ... they are not dictated to on how they

can spend it, they are free to spend it anyway they want!!

a reply to: pikestaff

Exactly the same phenomena occurring in the U.S..

It's a lot easier controlling a population if one deals with a large centralized authority rather than multiple smaller ones.

It's a rather safe assumption that gov'ts are largely insane and the real source of wars. Why make yet another level of gov't that has even more powers, less over-site and more restrictive?

As far as the referendum goes, my vote is out. I don't like other countries telling us what to do and what laws we should have. We're big enough and ugly enough to do that by ourselves. Farage is an OK bloke as far as I'm concerned and I have no beef at all with UKIP. Somehow though, if you say you vote UKIP, you seen to gain a stigma.

Also, it appears there's a new party on the block:

www.bbc.co.uk...

My vote is to leave.
Not that we will, the referendum will be rigged and even if by some miracle the out vote wins, there will follow a period of renegotiation where our PM will obtain some meaningless concessions and he'll say we don't need to leave now....Either that or, despite a referendum, leaving will be a free vote in Parliament and thus all those that put EU membership over democracy will vote to stay. (Specifically Labour, SNP and Lib Demoprats).