The seven signs before the final battle

a reply to: toktaylor

Actually there is a prophecy with a timeline that refers to a point in the future here. The day of Jezreel prophecy of Hosea. Put simply the prophecy predicts that Israel and Judea would face a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse. The Jewish temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Add a generation of approximately 35 years to that and you get a start date of the curse at around 35 AD. If you toss in the lifetime of the generation of Matthew 24 and assume 70 to 80 years for that then you get a date for the end of the curse between 2025 to 2028. Putting the event that caused the curse in the mid to late 20's AD.

And the event being referred to is the day of Jezreel. A thousand year period of peace and prosperity. And probably another name for the 1000 year reign of the saints in Revelation 20.

originally posted by: ntech
a reply to: toktaylor

Actually there is a prophecy with a timeline that refers to a point in the future here. The day of Jezreel prophecy of Hosea. Put simply the prophecy predicts that Israel and Judea would face a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse. The Jewish temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Add a generation of approximately 35 years to that and you get a start date of the curse at around 35 AD. If you toss in the lifetime of the generation of Matthew 24 and assume 70 to 80 years for that then you get a date for the end of the curse between 2025 to 2028. Putting the event that caused the curse in the mid to late 20's AD.

And the event being referred to is the day of Jezreel. A thousand year period of peace and prosperity. And probably another name for the 1000 year reign of the saints in Revelation 20.

can you quote the prophecy verbatim please...word for word.

a reply to: toktaylor

Since the entire book of Hosea concerns what the poster is talking about, it's a bit much to quote verbatim word for word. However, it's very easy to find.

www.biblegateway.com...

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: toktaylor

Since the entire book of Hosea concerns what the poster is talking about, it's a bit much to quote verbatim word for word. However, it's very easy to find.

www.biblegateway.com...

Thank you for answering that. You beat me to it.

I know the popular opinion here is that if you make a statement you are somehow bound by anyone who reads it to provide all the documentation and support they request in order to verify your statement. I believe people can and should do their own research. In far too many cases, especially on subjects where personal perspective plays a part, have I seen that even when sources and references are cited some people still choose to believe otherwise. I think it is far more convincing when you find the information yourself. I always urge people not to just take my word for it, look it up. Do the research. It will mean more when you come to the same conclusion. Or, at least it will help you to understand how someone else came to that conclusion even if you disagree.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: toktaylor

Since the entire book of Hosea concerns what the poster is talking about, it's a bit much to quote verbatim word for word. However, it's very easy to find.

www.biblegateway.com...

Thank you for answering that. You beat me to it.

I know the popular opinion here is that if you make a statement you are somehow bound by anyone who reads it to provide all the documentation and support they request in order to verify your statement. I believe people can and should do their own research. In far too many cases, especially on subjects where personal perspective plays a part, have I seen that even when sources and references are cited some people still choose to believe otherwise. I think it is far more convincing when you find the information yourself. I always urge people not to just take my word for it, look it up. Do the research. It will mean more when you come to the same conclusion. Or, at least it will help you to understand how someone else came to that conclusion even if you disagree.

Firstly..if you are speaking directly to someone about their personal issue...how is that a prophesy for the rest of world. Secondly....none of what is said..verbatim relates to your conclusion.


Then the Lord said to Hosea, “Call him Jezreel, because I will soon punish the house of Jehu for the massacre at Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel. 5 In that day I will break Israel’s bow in the Valley of Jezreel.”

6 Gomer conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. Then the Lord said to Hosea, “Call her Lo-Ruhamah (which means “not loved”), for I will no longer show love to Israel, that I should at all forgive them. 7 Yet I will show love to Judah; and I will save them—not by bow, sword or battle, or by horses and horsemen, but I, the Lord their God, will save them.”

8 After she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, Gomer had another son. 9 Then the Lord said, “Call him Lo-Ammi (which means “not my people”), for you are not my people, and I am not your God.

10 “Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘children of the living God.’ 11 The people of Judah and the people of Israel will come together; they will appoint one leader and will come up out of the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel.[c]

The original line must have been intended as a prophecy and not merely a story. So if a line says “a house will fall in a storm” this is just a story and not a prophecy of the fall of an empire. The author must make it clear to his readers that he is making a prophecy and not just speaking in general.

The prophecy must be instantly clear as to what it is foretelling; it cannot simply be so vague that any event could fulfil it. For example “a house will fall in a storm” is not a prophecy as anything could be interpreted as fulfilling it and those who hear it would not know. If a prophecy is supposed to be about someone, then it should make this clear from the beginning and not be left for future generations to try and guess who it is.

The evidence for Biblical prophesies is weak to the point of non-existent. Most of the claimed prophecies are merely wishful thinking. Metaphorical languages is twisted to give it an unintended meaning which is then applied to random historical events as though they are linked. The prophesies are as vague as any standard fortune teller with the accuracy level of wild guesses. It boggles the mind that someone could think these meagre scraps could be held as proof of communication with God and an ability to see into the future.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

But this one has........

originally posted by: ntech
Just thought I would add something to watch here for your thread.

The Daniel 8 battle of the ram and goat prophesy.

In Matthew 24 Jesus Christ makes a curious statement.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

So what does he mean by the "carcase or carcass"? Thinking it over I realized what he was doing there. it's an allusion like verse 15. Though not so obvious. So what is it alluding to? After thinking it over I realized there was a "carcass" in Daniel 8

Link to Daniel 8

The point of the prophesy? That at the time of the end there would be a war to start it. And that a powerful country from the west would attack and conquer 2 nations/kings in the middle east.

Now there are those who would say this is a fulfilled prophesy but there is a problem with that. Sometimes bible prophesies have multiple fulfillments. Also verse 8-17 and 19 make it plain that this is a end time prophesy. Do you really think the end times have come and gone? If not then this is still a prophesy of the future yet. And also toss in Daniel 11-2 which is the cause of the Daniel 8 war and there is something disturbing going on there.

It appears that Daniel called 3 major events of the past 15 years. 11-2 is a perfect 500 BC description of the 9-11 attacks. And Daniel 8 would appear to have predicted the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq. And then the question becomes " Is the US going to break up into the 4 notable horns of Daniel 8"?

If we are in the Apocalypse as I think we are then the destruction of the US and it's reformation into the 4 notable horns appear to be the next logical step on the road to the Antichrist as mentioned in verse 23. The little horn.

The carcase (your spelling is opportune) in verse 28: A B C = Do Re Mi in musical terms. Take a c and replace with Mi. M I A R C A S E.... an anagram of the places where the eagles are? They will become a carcass. It's not a war that is being foretold. It's something else.

originally posted by: toktaylor
The original line must have been intended as a prophecy and not merely a story. So if a line says “a house will fall in a storm” this is just a story and not a prophecy of the fall of an empire. The author must make it clear to his readers that he is making a prophecy and not just speaking in general.

The Book of Hosea is one of the books of the prophets. Hosea was a prophet. The books of the prophets chronicle their prophecies.

So you can take the book to be prophecy and not anything else.

Also, there are things in a prophecy that will mark it as fulfilled or not. Hosea is not fulfilled. Many of the prophets had things to say about the end times, and many of their prophecies remain unfulfilled for this reason.

a reply to: toktaylor

If you are talking about science, then perhaps. If you are talking about a faith based religion, your comments are meaningless.

What good is a faith based religion is God shows up, walks down the middle of main street, and hands out miracles to anyone who asks? There is no faith there. It undermines the whole concept of a faith based religion.

So there are no absolute "this is it" moments that are so clearly defined that anyone can see them. I have said many times, it will only be in retrospect that people will know if they were right or not.

"It shall come upon them like a thief in the night" and so on. Many descriptions of how no one will know ahead of time. But the bible also says, "For those whom are aware there will be signs." Not an exact date and time and location. Signs. Hints. Indicators. Call them what you like. The seven signs...are exactly that...signs...that something is happening. At least to the devout they are. If you don't believe, then none of it will ever make sense to you and you are wasting your time dealing with it at all. You wont convince anyone who believes not to, and you wont convince yourself to believe. So exactly what is your goal?

a reply to: Vroomfondel

so what is the purpose of prophesy??? sleight of hand, magician trick?? the creator of the universe has to turn to magician tricks to convince the world he is real...seriously.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
a reply to: toktaylor

If you are talking about science, then perhaps. If you are talking about a faith based religion, your comments are meaningless.

What good is a faith based religion is God shows up, walks down the middle of main street, and hands out miracles to anyone who asks? There is no faith there. It undermines the whole concept of a faith based religion.

So there are no absolute "this is it" moments that are so clearly defined that anyone can see them. I have said many times, it will only be in retrospect that people will know if they were right or not.

"It shall come upon them like a thief in the night" and so on. Many descriptions of how no one will know ahead of time. But the bible also says, "For those whom are aware there will be signs." Not an exact date and time and location. Signs. Hints. Indicators. Call them what you like. The seven signs...are exactly that...signs...that something is happening. At least to the devout they are. If you don't believe, then none of it will ever make sense to you and you are wasting your time dealing with it at all. You wont convince anyone who believes not to, and you wont convince yourself to believe. So exactly what is your goal?

You can’t simply take the prophecies that you like and ignore the others. The Bible is full of metaphorical language, so it is not good enough to take everything that sounds like it came true and ignore everything else. Likewise prophecies must be taken as whole, you can’t exclude the parts that didn’t come true and keep the rest. If you make a 100 prophecies and only one came true, then you cannot ignore the other 99 and call yourself a prophet.

The prophecy must have the potential to fail or be proven wrong. If there is no time limit on the prophecy then we could have to wait thousands of years before it is “fulfilled” at which point it is not a prophecy but a matter of probability. A prophecy can only be evidence if it could have failed as well as succeeded.

So those are the 8 ground rules. It may sound like I’m raising the standard very high, but we must realise what an extraordinary claim a prophecy is. It is nothing short of claiming that the creator of the universe is telling you how the future will unfold. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. After all, we are dealing with the creator of the universe for whom all things are possible. If God wanted he could predict the exact time and place of the next earthquake as well as the exact casualty list. I don’t think Christians should be worried that I am imposing stringent conditions on the prophecy, after all, that merely makes it all the more impressive if the Bible passes the test.

a reply to: toktaylor

Perhaps you should do some studying up on eschatology. There are very clear reasons why the prophets are prophets. Why some prophecies are fulfilled and others clearly are not, and there are markers.

It is a complicated subject.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: toktaylor

Perhaps you should do some studying up on eschatology. There are very clear reasons why the prophets are prophets. Why some prophecies are fulfilled and others clearly are not, and there are markers.

It is a complicated subject.

I think you should study up on prophets because this is how your bible describe them.

"After that you will go to Gibeah of God, where there is a Philistine outpost. As you approach the town, you will meet a procession of prophets coming down from the high place with lyres, timbrels, pipes and harps being played before them, and they will be prophesying." - 1 Samuel 10:5

From this description they were merely "entertainers", however, somehow over the years you guys tried to add divinity to it.

a reply to: toktaylor

Sorry I been away. Let's see if I can answer this. And I'm going to give the curse a proper name. The curse of Malachi.


Malachi 4
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

According to the book of Malachi and Zechariah the Jews were expecting 3 to 4 messiahs. The Lord, the 2 branches or messengers of the Lord, and Elijah the prophet. The problem here is that Elijah wasn't supposed to have died.

Matthew 17
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

See what Jesus Christ is telling the disciples there? He's telling them the curse had been triggered. And then he did something strange compared to his behavior from before. He starts talking in parables.

And then there is this.

Matthew 15
21 Then Jesus left Galilee and went north to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Gentile[e] woman who lived there came to him, pleading, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! For my daughter is possessed by a demon that torments her severely.”
23 But Jesus gave her no reply, not even a word. Then his disciples urged him to send her away. “Tell her to go away,” they said. “She is bothering us with all her begging.”
24 Then Jesus said to the woman, “I was sent only to help God’s lost sheep—the people of Israel.”
25 But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, “Lord, help me!”
26 Jesus responded, “It isn’t right to take food from the children and throw it to the dogs.”
27 She replied, “That’s true, Lord, but even dogs are allowed to eat the scraps that fall beneath their masters’ table.”
28 “Dear woman,” Jesus said to her, “your faith is great. Your request is granted.” And her daughter was instantly healed.

Then later he says this.

Matthew 28
18 Jesus came and told his disciples, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. 19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. 20 Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Because of the curse the plan changed. Essentially the last 2000 years was plan B. Why? Because of the way Judaism is constructed. Judaism is a set of laws based on the compact the Israelites made with their God and Moses in the desert after they left Egypt. And here is the compact.

Leviticus 26.

Essentially this is an agreement that as long as the Israelites followed the laws set down by Moses they would be favored and life would be good. Break the laws and corrective actions would be taken. Up to and including the destruction of the country and the deaths and enslavement of the people.

However from verse 40 onward there is a clause that someday the curse would be reversed and the people restored. And this is where the day of Jezreel prophecy comes in.

Hosea 1 The basic outline of the prophecy. Israel destroyed but restored again in the future as per Leviticus 26.

Now while all of Hosea is concerned with the curse it's verses 6-1 and 6-2 have the timeline for it.

Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

2nd Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Do you see it? 3 days or 3000 years. A 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse followed by a 1000 year "day of Jezreel". And that is the curse.

And one last thing here. Isaiah 6
You are not supposed to know about a curse until it's over.

a reply to: TheLamb

I was using the KJV there. But the word there is supposed to be carcass. So I believe that Jesus Christ is simply referring to a prophecy that has a carcass in it. A dead body. Daniel 8 fulfills the premise and in verse 15 he has already referenced Daniel once in the sermon. So literally I believe what he is telling you here in verses 27, 28, and 29 is to look for 2 nations conquered in the middle east and the tribulation that follows.

Sort of like what is happening there now. Eh????

a reply to: toktaylor

Actually not all prophesies come true. Things change. Prophesies are like a worst case scenario. If you look ahead and see a disaster looming and then take steps to avoid it you can prevent a prophecy from happening. See the book of Jonah.

Nineveh avoided destruction because they heeded the warning of Jonah. So not all prophecy will be fulfilled. Also many prophesies of the bible are end time prophesies. The end times haven't come yet. They are simply unfulfilled prophecy at the moment.