NAZI GREENS - An Inconvenient History • Martin Durkin

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: introvert

I think the rest of us are discussing the topic of environmentalism and its association with national socialism and earlier German philosophical movements rather than just attempting to refute whether national socialists were socialists.

Yes Yes good lead.

Like socialism, environmentalism suffers from begging the question as to whether its methods will achieve their implied goals.

Wealth allows more options than poverty. All of the goals of environmentalism can be best achieved from the application of wealth, and capitalism creates more wealth for everyone, even environmentalists.

a reply to: greencmp

There is no association between modern environmentalism and National Socialism. Nazi environmentalism was a means to an end, as I described in a previous posts.

rather than just attempting to refute whether national socialists were socialists.

They weren't socialists and myself and others have already laid this nonsense to rest. You keep trying to perpetuate lies for your agenda.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Well didn't the government get retuned with 100% of the vote last time. How much more democratic can you get? Still in this case I think it might be wise for me to to go with your personal experience.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
a reply to: introvert

Modern Leftists believe in socialism.
Modern Leftists believe in environmental issues.

Modern leftists seek to impose their beliefs upon others.
NAZI's sought to impose their belief upon others.
Modern Leftists are theocrats and comparable to Nazis.

Modern Leftists are anti-theocracy and to say that all Leftists want to impose their beliefs upon others in a generalization logical fallacy.

How can we discuss the issues intelligently when you cannot even approach the issue without resorting to ignorant fallacies?

a reply to: introvert

Like I said, or perhaps meant to imply, we can agree to disagree on that for the purposes of this discussion.

For what it's worth, I am sure that you would not call the up and coming threat of eco-totalitarianism truly "socialist" by your own biased definition.

So, whatever you want to call it, let's fight it together.

a reply to: ScepticScot

I was thinking of imigrating to Scotland but I can't understand you guys and of course ...Haguss.
Unfortunately you didn't vote for independence and I KNOW the UK wouldn't let me keep my M14...

a reply to: introvert

The problem is that for extreme libertarians there only is two political ideologies. Libertarianism and evil big government trying to steal my money, property, guns, women folk, goldfish, favourite jumper and collection of 1930's baseball cards.

When you look at it from that point of view equating environmentalism and fascism is perfectly logical.

a reply to: Semicollegiate

Did you miss the part where it said "other countries"?

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: Semicollegiate

The rather fatal flaw with your point being the assumption that the market value is most desirable value to be attained and that this will allow work and resources to be assigned successfully (for any given value of successfully),

The market value is the result of people not choosing something as well as choosing it. In a free system, the choice to buy, or to do anything at all, is compared to all the other choices that a person can make. The valuations determined by the free market are the real power of democracy, in that every resource and activity is given a vote of worth by everyone.

Everyone's most important personal tastes and interests are reflected by the prices of things. Everyone's normal, day to day, living judgment and intellect is the input into the free market. The output of the free market, which is the products offered, contains the sum of all human desires and intelligence and judgment.

That is what makes the free market the most prosperous economic system.

a reply to: greencmp

For what it's worth, I am sure that you would not call the up and coming threat of eco-totalitarianism truly "socialist" by your own biased definition.

What threat of eco-totalitarianism? The greenies are no threat to anyone. Hell, they have a hard time agreeing among themselves on what issues to work on.

And I would not call environmentalism or eco-totalitarianism socialist in any form. Socialism is an economic theory and political ideology. Some socialists may believe in environmentalism, but so could any right-leaning individual.

This entire topic is indicative of the idea on the Right that environmentalism is some code word or scheme for outright socialism.

It's a loony conspiracy.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: ScepticScot

I was thinking of imigrating to Scotland but I can't understand you guys and of course ...Haguss.
Unfortunately you didn't vote for independence and I KNOW the UK wouldn't let me keep my M14...

Very unfortunately in my view. Still the whisky and irn-bru more than make up for the appalling food. It true we are not big on guns over here but you can at least watch real sports rather than madey up american ones.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: introvert

The problem is that for extreme libertarians there only is two political ideologies. Libertarianism and evil big government trying to steal my money, property, guns, women folk, goldfish, favourite jumper and collection of 1930's baseball cards.

When you look at it from that point of view equating environmentalism and fascism is perfectly logical.

Liberalism (classical) is extreme, it advocates for limited government, free markets, international peace and private property in the means of production because it is the most moral, least wasteful and most productive arrangement for society.

It is also what has raised the most people out of abject poverty in history.

The environmentalists want a revolution.

Fascists saw World War I as a revolution. It brought revolutionary changes in the nature of war, society, the state, and technology. The advent of total war and total mass mobilization of society had broken down the distinction between civilian and combatant

Anyone who disagrees with climate change has basically been declared a enemy combatant. All be it not in those exact words.

Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[

This is EXACTLY what the climate change/green movement want. They are pushing protectionist, and economic interventionism.

One common definition of fascism focuses on three concepts: the fascist negations of anti-liberalism, anti-communism and anti-conservatism; nationalist authoritarian goals of creating a regulated economic structure to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture; and a political aesthetic of romantic symbolism, mass mobilization, a positive view of violence, and promotion of masculinity, youth and charismatic leadership.[26]

The green movement/climate change movement is as anti liberalism as it gets.

And it takes 'nationalism authoritarianism to world wide levels.

en.wikipedia.org...

Seeing what the climate change proponents pushing is truly frightening.

And it is wholly comparable to fascism.

a reply to: introvert

Okay, so, you disagree with the author completely on every point and every term and every conclusion.

Not really much more to talk about I guess.

a reply to: Semicollegiate

Of course the free market provides perfect results assuming of course that all participants have perfect knowledge and are rational, that there are no externalities, that there is no monopoly power, that income inequality and power imbalance does not force people to act in ways that are against their own interest, and of course that companies/corporations are really honest players in a truly free market.

Does that sound like reality?

a reply to: ScepticScot

Like I said, freedom of choice and retention of property has proved to be the best mode of existence for mankind from every standpoint.

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
a reply to: introvert

Modern Leftists believe in socialism.
Modern Leftists believe in environmental issues.

Modern leftists seek to impose their beliefs upon others.
NAZI's sought to impose their belief upon others.
Modern Leftists are theocrats and comparable to Nazis.

Modern Leftists are anti-theocracy and to say that all Leftists want to impose their beliefs upon others in a generalization logical fallacy.

How can we discuss the issues intelligently when you cannot even approach the issue without resorting to ignorant fallacies?

If that were true I wouldn't pay income taxes or have a Social Security number. Lefties are always imposing their beliefs upon others.

Lefties are theocratic because they believe in their God, the State. The State has mystical powers of omnipotence to make the environment just right and divine omnipotent insight into the needs ands wants of all Lefty believers.

originally posted by: neo96
The environmentalists want a revolution.

Fascists saw World War I as a revolution. It brought revolutionary changes in the nature of war, society, the state, and technology. The advent of total war and total mass mobilization of society had broken down the distinction between civilian and combatant

Anyone who disagrees with climate change has basically been declared a enemy combatant. All be it not in those exact words.

Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[

This is EXACTLY what the climate change/green movement want. They are pushing protectionist, and economic interventionism.

One common definition of fascism focuses on three concepts: the fascist negations of anti-liberalism, anti-communism and anti-conservatism; nationalist authoritarian goals of creating a regulated economic structure to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture; and a political aesthetic of romantic symbolism, mass mobilization, a positive view of violence, and promotion of masculinity, youth and charismatic leadership.[26]

The green movement/climate change movement is as anti liberalism as it gets.

And it takes 'nationalism authoritarianism to world wide levels.

en.wikipedia.org...

Seeing what the climate change proponents pushing is truly frightening.

And it is wholly comparable to fascism.

Case and point!

Scientists ask Obama for RICO investigation to end climate debate

I am sure someone will come along and call that propaganda?

a reply to: greencmp

I would argue that high levels of inequality and imbalance of of property/wealth ownership removes freedom of choice.

Modern progressives think that they have a monopoly on caring and compassion. This is why they balk at the comparison in the OP. They cant comprehend that environmentalism can come from the right and so cant see the correlation to authoritarianism. A quick glance through history and we can see that early modern environmentalism began with the right. Just look at people like Teddy Roosevelt. This is because he was affected I would wager in some way by the same ideas and sentiments floating around that led to the rise of Nazism. It is just a tool for collectivist used to circumvent individual rights by the state. Well meaning rhetoric that sways good people.

This falls in with PC culture as well. If you aren't for giving the state complete control over the environment then you are a backwards knuckle dragger that only cares about greed, protecting corporations, and destroying brown people.