NAZI GREENS - An Inconvenient History • Martin Durkin

originally posted by: nonjudgementalist
So some Nazi Philosopher Kings projected their ideals of how man society should be onto the natural world, that doesn't make the natural world what they describe, or a bad thing to want to protect it from destruction and pollution etc.

true and true

Without a state there would be no national health service, no ambulance service, no police etc. Those things are not 'natural', but they are very socialist.

False, except for the adjective "national". Socialism claims to be a mode or method for providing those services. All services, themselves, are people doing something in return for compensation-- no socialism needed.

Whatever people voluntarily contract to arrange is natural human behavior.

I call myself a socialist. But I reject the idea that I am in any way a fascist.

Possible. Intentions are not usually the sine qua non of description and classification. Usually results or real conditions are. By their fruit ye shall know them.

There are clear distinctions between fascism and socialism

Fascism is a subset of socialism. Socialism is control of the State by central planning, in the name of the people.

Even though some fascist ideology promotes socialist ideals, it doesnt make all socialism fascist.

true, not all socialism is Fascist. Fascism tends to be nationalistic and leader cult oriented. But the political and economic realities of Fascism are socialistic, i.e. control of the economy and society by central planning in the name of the good of the people.

Similarly some Libertarians, Capitalis, and Anarchists are fascists,

False. Fascism requires central planning. Libertarians, Capitalists, and Anarchists never never never endorse central planning. Coercion is also anathema.

So what if some elitist, nationalistic, xenophobic, racist, spiritually self centred, and often violent and inhumane totalitarians cared about the planet and the environment? That doesn't make everyone else who cares about and campaigns for the environment guilty by association.

true

Lenin called them useful idiots.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: ScepticScot

I would agree but also disagree. Plenty of authoritarian/marxist states have arisen through populist support and democratic processes even the Nazis. The centralization and socialization work better with consent but when that runs out the apparatus is already in place through central planning policies. I look at the EU sure its voluntary until you decide you want to leave. I align with Plato when it comes to democracy it will eventually descend into a tyranny. Left or Right.

The rise of the Nazi party to power in Germany is certainly an interesting example as at that time Germany did not have a strong democratic tradition and the institutions that should have prevented the seizure of power were either weak or non existent.

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
a reply to: greencmp

Good Read !


The fact that environmentalism disregards feeding people in favor of limiting the individual's freedom of action is a two-fer from the totalitarian perspective.

No wonder the NSDAP leadership loved it.

I was struck by the reminder that, not just the economic mobility that capitalism enabled but, the physical mobility was a tremendous threat to the status quo.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
To be clear NAZIS were capable of good ideas,quite a few.
LEADERSHIP failed them.
Can't keep kicking Germans and not give them their due.

It has been said that Germany is the only country that socialism could work in, because the bureaucrats there are efficient, intelligent and ethical. Maybe Japan as well, for the same reasons.

The problem with socialism is not it's intentions, but its inability to discover the market value of anything and therefore the inability to assign work and resources successfully.

More of the "National Socialism is actual Socialism" propaganda, huh?

We've been over this many times and too many people, including the OP, gladly stick their fingers in their ears when it has been pointed out time and time again that there is very little the Nazis did that could be compared or labeled as the economic ideology that is socialism.

But socialism is in their name. So they must be socialist, right? Wrong! Just like the Patriot Act having nothing to do with patriotism.

So now let's follow the logic of the OP's source:

Nazis were bad.
Nazis killed people.
Nazis were socialists.
Nazis had environmental programs.

Modern Leftists believe in socialism.
Modern Leftists believe in environmental issues.
Modern Leftists are bad and comparable to Nazis.

Does anyone notice that the entire OP and it's source is based on the association fallacy?

An association fallacy is an inductive informal fallacy of the type hasty generalization or red herring which asserts that qualities of one thing are inherently qualities of another, merely by an irrelevant association. The two types are sometimes referred to as guilt by association and honor by association. Association fallacies are a special case of red herring, and can be based on an appeal to emotion

I really don't know why I'm even posting this. We have covered this many times over but some people just can't grasp the concept.

a reply to: Semicollegiate

The rather fatal flaw with your point being the assumption that the market value is most desirable value to be attained and that this will allow work and resources to be assigned successfully (for any given value of successfully),

a reply to: ScepticScot

I don't see how a better sense of democracy would have stopped Hitler. He used propaganda and legalisms to gain popular support all within democratic confines. He legally had himself made leader. It just goes to show about good intentions and granting the state too much authority and how it ties into the modern green agenda. Without democracy he would have had to compete with too many interest on his own without the backing of the people/state. When he tried to snatch control through non-democratic means (bier hall putsch) he was thrown in prison. Democracy enables people and regimes like Hitlers to take power through manipulating the public and legal system.

It sounds like I am against democracy which I am not but when you combine centralization and democracy it is too simple to wrest control from the people. Once the leaders have open access to the public's coffers its done for.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
In many ways the Volkish movement was the precursor to the Hippies and was quite Liberal with regards to Naturism and natural philosophy, being also influenced by Theosophy there were a lot of Hindu sentiments with regards to environmentalism, they were looking towards a new way of living and a re-examination of religion given it's decline at that time.

As a revolutionary party the NSDAP was open to new and radical approaches, not all of it's influences were bad by any means, it's worst influences were of course pseudo-Roman imperialism and Fascism combined with Prussian militarism and the baby ended up getting thrown out with the bathwater...but happily it didn't die.

"it's worst influences were of course pseudo-Roman imperialism"
That's interesting! I've got to look that one up. Maybe that's the answer to the worlds problems, particularly the Middle East, i.e., the re-invention and reintroduction of the Roman Empire! SPQR!

a reply to: introvert

What? Next you will be telling me that the Democratic Peoples Republic Of Korea isn't really democratic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

a reply to: Semicollegiate

It also seems to slow progress.
Germany is now run by a scientist and LOOK at the mess.
HER IDEA!

originally posted by: introvert

Does anyone notice that the entire OP and it's source is based on the association fallacy?

But "association" often times is reality.

Actions always speak louder than words.

a reply to: introvert

Actually, he specifically states that the commonalities far exceed simple coincidence justifying further inspection and then proceeds to give extensive examples charting the course of environmentalism in Germany.

a reply to: ScepticScot

ONLY if you told me Nessie wasn't real.
I'm still mad Willam Wallis was like the movie...

a reply to: NihilistSanta

I would say that Germany in the 30's is the perfect example of why there is more to democracy than just elections. Hitler did come to power semi democratically (if you ignore the intimidation and corruption) however there wasn't the strength in democratic institutions to prevent him taking near total control (Separation of powers if you will).

One of the (many) reasons I am not a libertarian is that I believe the lack of any strong state institutions make totalitarianism more likely not less.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: ScepticScot

ONLY if you told me Nessie wasn't real.
I'm still mad Willam Wallis was like the movie...

Nessie is real and Braveheart was a documentary!

(I have say this as we have a whole tourist industry based round these 'facts')

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: greencmp
We have had local schooling for a very long time but, it was the federal consolidation that has produced the monster that we have before us.

So, it still doesn't make it worse than countries where education is a personal choice.

Even local government may not have had much of a role in most schools until the 20th century.

That means that there are 80 years in between which you don't seem to have a problem with.

Revisionist history, Charlotte Iserbyt, in particular, put the beginning of the decline of education in the 1930's. For whatever reason, books and writing were considered old fashioned and new methods of teaching were adopted.

According to Murray Rothbard, before the 1930's, back into the 19th century, public education in the US tended to favor collectivist ideologies. The default teachers were usually Protestant Yankee types who believed that a person must save other people in order to achieve heaven. (The problem is that it is impossible to live some one else's life for them)

The various born again Protestants had a common ideological theme of interference into other people's business in order to save them. Yankee, in other words.

a reply to: greencmp

Dude, it's pro-capitalist, anti-Leftist propaganda.

The entire Nazi "Blood and soil" environmentalism was used as a way to ease the population in to the idea that not only did earth have to be clean of pollution and such, but also the filthy inferior races that they shared the land with.

The last paragraph of the source exposes the author very well:

Green thinking was not a side-line for the Nazis. The idealisation of nature and the organic, the nostalgia for the Middle Ages, the anti-capitalism, the hatred of bankers, the hatred of cities and industry, the idealisation of peasant life … all this defined their poisonous ideology. It was the green attempt of the Nazis to recreate a peasant society which led them to invade Poland in search of ‘living space’. It was their green nostalgia for the Middle Ages which led to their ‘blood and soil’ racist ideology. It was their green anti-capitalism and loathing of bankers which led them to hate Jewish people. It was their green rejection of the Judeo-Christian tradition and of the Enlightenment and its humanist values, and their green return to pagan animal-worship - their idealisation of pre-civilised barbarism as more ‘authentic’ - that led to them to treat humans as worthless creatures with no more claim on our sympathies than viruses and pests. Green ideology was at the core of National Socialism. When we wonder what diseased thinking could motivate people to turn on the gas taps at Auschwitz, this is where we must look.

Anti-Capitalist? The Nazis hated socialism, propped-up capitalists (in fact his rise to power was funded by capitalists) and Auschwitz wasn't just some concentration camp, it was a labor camp for the capitalists at IG Farben.

This was a piss-poor attempt to equate modern environmentalists to Nazi ideology. Not only is it false, but also an insult to our intelligence.

a reply to: ScepticScot

I have my doubts about North Korea as well,they didn't seem too folksy at the DMZ in Pam Mun Jong...of course NOBOBY spoke which was rude...

a reply to: introvert

I think the rest of us are discussing the topic of environmentalism and its association with national socialism and earlier German philosophical movements rather than just attempting to refute whether national socialists were socialists.

a reply to: introvert

Modern Leftists believe in socialism.
Modern Leftists believe in environmental issues.

Modern leftists seek to impose their beliefs upon others.
NAZI's sought to impose their belief upon others.
Modern Leftists are theocrats and comparable to Nazis.