These Two Verses Destroys Christian Doctrine

Every Christian has faith that if they believe in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross then they will be forgiven regardless of any actions they take while in this life. Jesus teaches a different doctrine. These two verses completely destroy the doctrine that Jesus' sacrifice is what saves.

Matthew 6
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

If you forgive others' sins against you, God will forgive your sins, but if you do NOT forgive others then God will not forgive you either, regardless of whether you believe in a sacrifice or not. How can Christians argue against this? Probably by citing words from someone other than Jesus.

Jesus says that forgiveness lies within YOUR actions, not his. If you decide not to act on forgiving others, you will not be forgiven either. There is no special type of interpretation required here, he says it in plain language. YOU forgiving others is where your salvation lies. What does it mean to forgive someone? To show love for someone, regardless of what they have done to you in the past.

Again:

Matthew 6
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Jesus' sacrifice was never necessary, only forgiving others and loving them is necessary. This is straight from the horse's mouth. How can this be argued with?

Some may say that forgiving others is not always possible and Jesus' sacrifice is the backup plan so to speak. I disagree that forgiveness isn't always possible, but even if it were impossible, that does not negate what Jesus said about non-forgiveness. If you do not forgive others, YOU are not forgiven either. There is no alternative that Jesus speaks of here, only forgiveness for forgiveness.

What is forgiveness? An outward manifestation of love for someone else. Those who truly love someone else unconditionally will forgive them for whatever they do. That's what unconditional love is, love without conditions.

Matthew 5
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law. What is the Law? Love. Jesus' two commandments on love are what the Law and Prophets hung on by his own words.

Did Jesus fulfill the Law? YES!

Luke 23
34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Even as they were hanging him on the cross, Jesus forgave them. He fulfilled the Law by loving those who persecuted and tortured him. That is what unconditional love is, forgiving others no matter the circumstances.

Can we also fulfill the law? YES!

Romans 13
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

If we love others unconditionally and forgive them, we have fulfilled the Law just as Jesus did while hanging on the cross. If we do not fulfill the Law of love, we are not forgiven regardless of Jesus' death on the cross. Jesus says so himself.

Jesus' gospel was not his sacrifice, it was LOVE and FORGIVENESS, something we all have within us. Only if we try can we fulfill the Law just as Jesus did.

So which is it? He either fullfilled the prophesy or he didnt. not really seeing the contradiction. And i think you have the word love and forgiveness confused. Love doesnt mean forgiveness and forgiveness definitely doesnt mean love. reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I count five verses in your OP.

... and they aren't contradictory to Christian doctrine.

Perhaps they contradict your own personal definition of Christian doctrine?

The Law was all about holiness and how to regain a holy state when you sinned. This required blood sacrifices and other observances. All these things showed the necessity of Jesus' sacrifice.

Forgiveness of sins is not what Jesus' sacrifice did, it reconciled us to God, we who were estranged. It did that through allowing us to be born again, born of the Holy Spirit, because as Adam's descendants we were condemened to death as defective humans, whether we even did anything of our free will or not (like a baby dying). This is the sin that the sacrifice saved us from. Unfortunately the bible or translations of it use the one word "sin" to decsribe acts of selfishness and unholiness as well as estrangement from God as inherently defective descendants of the sinner Adam.

ETA
Joh 1:10 The Word was in the world, but no one knew him, though God had made the world with his Word.
Joh 1:11 He came into his own world, but his own nation did not welcome him.
Joh 1:12 Yet some people accepted him and put their faith in him. So he gave them the right to be the children of God.
Joh 1:13 They were not God's children by nature or because of any human desires. God himself was the one who made them his children.
Joh 1:14 The Word became a human being and lived here with us. We saw his true glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father. From him all the kindness and all the truth of God have come down to us.
Joh 1:15 John spoke about him and shouted, "This is the one I told you would come! He is greater than I am, because he was alive before I was born."
Joh 1:16 Because of all that the Son is, we have been given one blessing after another.
Joh 1:17 The Law was given by Moses, but Jesus Christ brought us undeserved kindness and truth.

This is a better translation of vs 13 Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man[that means your biiological father], but of God.

This is through the atonement sacrifice, the reconciliation with God.

And F.Y.I. a reply to: traintrain
If you were paying any attention to your bible study you would have learned . That man doesn't have the capacity to understand god or his plans. It would be like me trying to explain why the sun rises to a ant. It would stop paying attention at the very sound of my voice.let alone understand anythung im saying

a reply to: chr0naut

Matthew 6:14-15 are the verses I was talking about, the others were only to reinforce those two. They contradict Christian doctrine by saying forgiving others is what gives you forgiveness. Christian doctrine states that belief in Jesus' sacrifice is what gives you forgiveness.

a reply to: traintrain

Where did I say he did or didn't fulfill a prophecy? I said he fulfilled the Law of love, not any prophecy.

a reply to: traintrain

Actually, love and forgiveness go hand in hand...

You have to remember that love can be much more than just a feeling.

The easiest way to understand the term love in most 'biblical' contexts, is to think of love as a 'verb' - something you 'do'...

...For example, when you go out of your way to do an act of kindness, you are 'doing' love -

- to take the 'higher road' and forgive a person for wronging you is a loving thing to do...


So yes, loving someone can "mean forgiveness", and forgiveness definitely can "mean [that] love" is being 'done' as the process of forgiving...

a reply to: Cinrad

The Law was all about holiness and how to regain a holy state when you sinned. This required blood sacrifices and other observances. All these things showed the necessity of Jesus' sacrifice.

I believe HE commanded mercy... not sacrifice

Why is it so important for nonbelievers to "destroy Christianity" ? It's not like Christians believe you must convert to Christianity or be killed as the Muslims believe. Are nonbelievers perfect? Have they solved all the problems in their own lives? Have they solved world hungry, homelessness, and all the other problems in the world? No but they can't stand to see someone find comfort in Christianity. Most wars have been fought because one religious faction or non religious faction were trying to make another change their beliefs. Mind your own business and worship what ever God, Devil, statue, rock, or tree you want or not. But stop trying to tear down your neighbors beliefs and worry about your own business, the world would be a better place overnight.
-a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Cinrad

The Law was all about holiness and how to regain a holy state when you sinned. This required blood sacrifices and other observances. All these things showed the necessity of Jesus' sacrifice.

I believe HE commanded mercy... not sacrifice

This is where it is helpful to KYB Akragon.

Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means: 'I want mercy and not sacrifice,' because I did not come to call righteous people, but sinners."

Want not commanded. God is cool ha? He commanded sacrifice because the laws of the universe required it, but He would have preferred if we hadn't sinned in the first place.

a reply to: Cinrad

You'd think a "Christian" would take every word of his "god" as a commandment...

interesting... Perhaps you might take the advice of the verse?

originally posted by: Stearman65

Why is it so important for nonbelievers to "destroy Christianity"?

The language they use betrays their true motivation--what would be called hatred and bigotry if directed at any other group.

Violent language such as this cannot be inspired by anything else.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Cinrad

You'd think a "Christian" would take every word of his "god" as a commandment...

Why?

interesting... Perhaps you might take the advice of the verse?

I dont understand what you mean by that.

a reply to: Cinrad

Why??

isn't "all scripture god breathed"?

I dont understand what you mean by that.

Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means: 'I want mercy and not sacrifice,

Fatith and good works my friend.

It's what we are taught in catholicism from day one.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: chr0naut

Matthew 6:14-15 are the verses I was talking about, the others were only to reinforce those two. They contradict Christian doctrine by saying forgiving others is what gives you forgiveness. Christian doctrine states that belief in Jesus' sacrifice is what gives you forgiveness.

If you don't forgive, are unrepentant and do not believe, then Jesus death will not save you.

Christians believe that if you are truly repentant, you forgive others, you truly believe that God wants and is capable to redeem you, then you are more than saved, God Himself will dwell with you.

There are some simple but important conditions to be met and they are very clearly laid out in the gospels.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Have you seen The Wizard of Oz?

The wizard gives everyone what they want for free, but they must follow the yellow brick road to get to him.

That story is like the Christian doctrine of salvation:

God gives salvation by grace (for free/by his own merit), but to receive it, you have to have faith enough to follow his word/the way to get to him.

To follow the way is to follow Jesus (the yellow brick road is symbolic of Jesus), and by seeing the way (the road/the word/Jesus), you gain faith in him (Jesus); and it is that faith gained by following the way which is what you need to get to Father (in order to receive grace for free.) So, faith is free, and grace is free - you just have to follow the way to receive. (To follow the way, is to do what Jesus is showing you.)

And one part of the way, one of his lessons, is to forgive others so that you too are forgiven.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

Also, faith is addressed in several ways in the Bible. The one where you receive faith is like receiving faith byway of seeing something is true, even though it is an unseen thing. e.g. A woman has faith in her husband because she sees he is faithful - but that faith is unseen - because you cannot show someone that you aren't betraying them - it would be like proving a negative. (That is the faith from God mentioned in Hebrews 11:1 - he is faithful to you, so you gained faith from his faithfulness - you see that he is not betraying you, that he is true to his word, that you received the thing hoped for, etc.) The faith you need comes by hearing, and hearing comes by following the Word/hearing the Word/following Jesus.

I can forgive. In time.
It is healthy to let grudges go.
Right at that moment I'm being nailed to a cross, I would have no problem ripping throats with my teeth.
We can laugh about it down the road.

oh, another intellectually bankrupt attempt at discrediting the bible or christianity?


did you know, oh enlightened one, that the pharisees were considered experts in the holy texts? and yet Jesus constantly reproved and rebuked them as having not understood the scriptures or the power of God. You are well deserving of this same condemnation. You havent a clue in the world of what youre talking about. Furthermore your agenda and attitude make it abundantly clear that trying to correct you would be a complete waste of time.

Jesus said lots of things. He also said "give not that which is holy to the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before the swine, lets they trample them under their feet and turn again and rend you" Matthew 7:6


Do you know what this verse means? Do you think out of all the many millions of people who have for hundreds of years very diligently and more importantly, SINCERELY, studied the scriptures, that YOU have suddenly seized upon some grand new truth?

You would do well to get down off your high horse of self important egocentric sense of enlightenment and if truth is important to you go inside your closet and ask the Creator for mercy and to show you what you need to know.