What came first, Nothing or Something?

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Lol, thanks

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

I think Nothing can exist in a state of time that is constant. And so in order for Nothing to exist in a state of time, there must simultaneously be Something to compare it to and give it definition.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
a reply to: Gothmog

I am thinking singularity may actually be duality.

Or Plurality

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
a reply to: Gothmog

I am thinking singularity may actually be duality.

Or Plurality

Yes. I'm good with that.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

If it's existing in a constant time you have at least 1 dimension, and therefore not nothing.

Nothing is undefinable, as soon as it is defined it ceases to be nothing.

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar
a reply to: MotherMayEye

If it's existing in a constant time you have at least 1 dimension, and therefore not nothing.

Nothing is undefinable, as soon as it is defined it ceases to be nothing.

You know, I never quite understood why time is the fourth dimension and not the first.

EDIT: In fact, grasping the concept of all the dimensions is very challenging for me because I feel like time is out of place. No pun intended.

a reply to: MotherMayEye
Which came first 'no thing' or 'some thing'?
There are no things - there is just this that is happening - is what is happening a 'thing'? What is happening (aliveness) is not a thing.
Alan Watts (philosopher and Buddhist) once said - 'Thinking is thinging'. Prior to thought there are no things - so before words there is nothing - just this (that IS).

A 'thing' is a particular - a part. Life is whole and complete - no parts.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu...

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Grasping all the dimensions is the main problem.

We say something is nothing because it doesn't incorporate the 4 dimensions we claim to understand.

If we had a full understanding of all the dimensions a concept like nothing may not even make sense.

You know for certain that you are. But do you exist as some thing? Or are you seeing/knowing what there is to see/know?

There maybe an idea that you are some 'thing' that exists but on closer inspection............to be or not to be? That is the question.

There is no beginning and no end. A beginning is nowhere to be found nor can it be reasoned or deducted. It is like defining the end of the day and the beginning at 00:00, completely made up, just like time. It's all one motion that has always been in motion and always will be. If we had a time travelling machine which could also transport anywhere in existence, we could go back in time forever and see countless galaxies forming and dissolving and after several generations of time travellers there would still be no beginning in sight.

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar
a reply to: MotherMayEye

Grasping all the dimensions is the main problem.

We say something is nothing because it doesn't incorporate the 4 dimensions we claim to understand.

If we had a full understanding of all the dimensions a concept like nothing may not even make sense.

But how can the first three dimensions intersect without time?

a reply to: MotherMayEye
An very interesting idea.

Ex nihilo, nihil fit. Out of nothing, nothing comes. Ex nihilo when used outside of religious or metaphysical contexts, also refers to something coming from nothing. Wikipedia

Even nothing comes from something, or nothingness is a consequence of something; but can we truly fathom the concept of nothingness or only the rudiments of it?

The concept of opposites also suggest something cyclical, a unity. For example extreme sweetness is bitter and extreme bitterness has a sweet after taste. Extreme cold is hot and extreme heat is cold and so on using our senses; but nothingness, we can only imagine it... isn't that something?

Endings and beginnings... infinity... wow, I still have to wrap my head around it. Thank you for the mental punishment.

originally posted by: MaxTamesSiva

Endings and beginnings... wow, I still have to wrap my head around it. Thank you for the mental punishment.

You're welcome.

I enjoyed your comment, BTW.

originally posted by: johnnyjoe1979
There is no beginning and no end. A beginning is nowhere to be found nor can it be reasoned or deducted. It is like defining the end of the day and the beginning at 00:00, completely made up, just like time. It's all one motion that has always been in motion and always will be. If we had a time travelling machine which could also transport anywhere in existence, we could go back in time forever and see countless galaxies forming and dissolving and after several generations of time travellers there would still be no beginning in sight.

Agree. Something and/or Nothing must be perpetual and infinite because they define one another.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

If the universe is a controlled system then the universe itself
would be something even before nothing existed with-in it's parameters.
Also if it is a controlled system, then something exists apart or outside from
the closed system. If the control is anticipated perpetual motion, then
prediction is vindicated as a component, of the self sustaining model
of the universe, we do observe. And if prediction is highly indicative of
intelligence? In our limited knowledge we would have to assume at this
point, that which is outside the universe is that intelligence. And that
intelligence ( something )is responsible for creating the universe
( again something ). Even tho nothing existed in the universe
( something again ) So someone created something and filled it
with some things and us. And then we made airplane.

a reply to: randyvs


You are getting pretty good at this

well to expand on this further...

We exist in something that is not our technology...

So we can question what came before that?

The biggest unanswered question I have is how...

If I had one wish it would be how... I think if we were ever given the answer to that we would lose our purpose to be what we are... I also think that is the point of our existence...

meh anyhow I like this thread... Reminds me of old ATS, I like posting in this thread...

a reply to: Bicent76

meh anyhow I like this thread... Reminds me of old ATS, I like posting in this thread...

Sort of a philosophical brain twister that provokes thinking outside
the box so to speak. Good thread indeed.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
Here's a fun 'origin' question: What came first, Nothing or Something? My answer: They have both existed perpetually because their existence depends entirely on one another by comparison.

To completely define anything that exists, requires a complete data-set of that which it isn't; the complete universe, ever!!
This is the schizophrenic workings of a dualistic mind!
All 'identity' exists in the imagination/ego!
The more clearly you define what you are, the more 'limiting' the 'identity' becomes; the more that you are not!
To 'believe' these 'thoughts' is insanity!
We are One Omni- Self!

All moments of Universal existence exist Here! Now!
Fully formed, unchangeable!
Existence IS the 'Singularity'!
Here! Now!

"The Laws of Nature are not rules controlling the metamorphosis of what is, into what will be. They are descriptions of patterns that exist, all at once... " - Genius; the Life and Science of Richard Feynman
All 'eternity' at once; Here! Now!!

There is only one moment (Planck moment; 10^-43/sec; "almost" one billion trillion trillion trillionths of a second!!!) of the entirety of existence/Reality/the Universe!
All existence, ever, is one, literally, 'timeless' moment!
Now!

'Time' is an 'appearance' of the imagination, like 'motion'.
There is One (unchanging, ALL inclusive) Universal Reality/Self!
Here! Now!
Every moment is a unit of unique Conscious Perspective (Soul) of the One Reality.
Reality is One synchrony/symphony of unique moments of Self Knowledge!
Talk about a 'Big Bang' of Self Knowledge!
The entirety of existence, Universally, IS the 'Singularity'!

"The Laws of Nature are not rules controlling the metamorphosis of what is, into what will be. They are descriptions of patterns that exist, all at once... " - Genius; the Life and Science of Richard Feynman
All 'eternity' at once; Here! Now!!

"Reality is a synchrony of moments!"

There is no 'nothing' to 'come' at all, other than as a meaningless word with no appropriate 'concept' to give it meaning.
Every'thing' exists, there cannot be any'thing' to not exist.

... My thinking about the comparative concept of 'Nothingness and Somethingness' somehow giving birth to the Universe (and any other Universes -- collectively referred to in this post as the 'Something-Universe') is that it is an idea not dependent on a 'mind' to realize it. It exists unto its own.

All is known, not anything (notice I didn't say 'nothing', 'cause it ain't so!) that exists is not perceived by Conscious Perspective.
We perceive 'thoughts' just like we perceive the cup of water in our hand.
There is always a 'Perceiver'!

"Consciousness is the ground of all being!" - Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics
One Universal Consciousness, with a unique Perspective (Soul) at every point in the entire Universe!
This, all is Known!
Not anything "exists on it's own"!
That is an illusion of 'thought/imagination/ego.
Never 'believe' anything that you think or feel!
Therein lies insanity! *__-

Perpetually there is Nothingness and Somethingness, together. For each quality to exist in a state, the other must exist to compare it to.

Only in the imagination.
Perhaps the 'fallacy' of 'nothing' reflects the fallacy of 'something'?
Since one cannot be without the other, as you observe.
Another 'imagining', not to be 'believed'!

Though, a Universal Law upon which I stumbled is;

"For every Perspective, there is an equal and opposite Perspective!" - The First Law of Soul Dynamics (Book of Fudd)

"The acceptance and understanding of other Perspectives furthers our acquaintance with Reality!"

"The complete Universe (Reality/Truth/God/'Self!'/Tao/Brahman... or any feature herein...) can be completely defined/described as the synchronous sum-total of all Perspectives!" - Book of Fudd
ALL INCLUSIVE!!!

tat tvam asi (en.wikipedia.org...)

The revelations of quantum physics, as I understand them, are that the smallest particles exist in simultaneous states. These states depend on the idea of comparison and observation to define them.

That which exists is 'observed/known' by the One Consciousness.
The only states that depend on 'thought' are imaginary states that exist in thought, dualistic thoughts 'about' rather than direct experience 'of'!

Let me illustrate;

'Point to the left'.
Easy.
Note where you are pointing.
Now turn 1 degree and point to the left.
Again note the results.
Now another degree, etc...
And another 1/4 of a degree...
Turn in every possible direction, on every possible axis!
It turns out that every direction is 'left', 'left' is a 'cloud needing a particular Perspective to have any 'direction' at all!
Now point to the 'right'!
Same drill!
Note that the exact same cloud of 'left', is also, at the same moment, a cloud of 'right'!
Do the experiment!

The only 'distinctions' that can even be called 'left' or 'right', are a matter of Perspective!
But each and every unique Perspective only perceives a 'whisper' of the entirety of the Universe!

"The complete Universe (Reality/Truth/God/'Self!'/Tao/Brahman... or any feature herein...) can be completely defined/described as the synchronous sum-total of all Perspectives!" - Book of Fudd

Ultimately, We are One (unchanging (motionless), all inclusive) 'Cloud'/Reality!!
Here! Now! *__-

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
Here's a fun 'origin' question: What came first, Nothing or Something? My answer: They have both existed perpetually because their existence depends entirely on one another by comparison.

I guess there is a word limit on answers.

I wanted to point to the 'chrono-synclastic infundibulum', where all apparent opposites are resolved into One!

Someone asked a question the other day about how can we ever gain something without losing something.
And that is true, we cannot ever 'gain' something without 'losing' something!
It is also true (in this Great Cloud of Reality) that you cannot 'lose' something without 'gaining' something.

"All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense." -Robert Anton Wilson

Thus, in Reality, the imaginary schizophrenic notions of gain and lose cancel each other out!
The moment all opposite Perspectives arise to Consciousness, they all cancel out and poof! Gone!
Thus the timeless Reality of the moment Here! Now!