Which Came First: Consciousness or Matter?

originally posted by: VP740
a reply to: cooperton

Perhaps neither was first and they're two sides of the same coin.

Kind of that

I believe consciousness requires energy. Energy consciousness can manipulate matter.

So - - Energy and Matter first. Consciousness evolves from Energy.

There is no "first" or "after," because time is not really linear like that. Basically, what you have is that matter and consciousness have always existed, but in a constant state of flux between virtuality and reality.

Simple.

Both can neither be created no distroyed.

Peace

I think, therefore I am.

Consciousness can't exist without a brain.

Therefore, matter came first.

Matter can exist without a conscience, but not the other way around.

originally posted by: Blue Shift
There is no "first" or "after," because time is not really linear like that. Basically, what you have is that matter and consciousness have always existed, but in a constant state of flux between virtuality and reality.
Simple.

Once consciousness and matter agreed it became a simple 'handshake' deal.

originally posted by: dezertdog
I think, therefore I am.

What allows you to think?

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: ChesterJohn

Is there such thing as consciousness outside of a body though? A brain or similar structure is required for consciousness to arise as far as we can tell. It's a never ending or beginning process. The physical never had a beginning just as consciousness didn't in my opinion.

Quite true but the question is whether or not there exist structures (perhaps akin to dark matter) that we cannot perceive complicates the matter. Good point though

I believe everything is consciousness. The only reason our physical bodies and other things seem real is because our consciousness is too slow to pick up on the empty space between our atoms.

We are 99.9% empty space. Meaning, the electrons orbiting the nucleus which make up atoms, which make up our bodies and all other matter, are 99.9% empty space. Think about that for a second.

Our consciousness is registering what we perceive to be reality at a rate which make us perceive it as real.

It is like watching a movie in a way.

Our physical reality is flashing so quick our consciousness can not register the space between frames.
Say you have a video of a rock. The rock is in every frame flashing with the back ground. If you take the rock out of every other frame it seems less solid while the background appears to stay the same. This is because our consciousness can register the frames you took the rock out of.

This is pretty much my view of dreams, OBE's, and reality in general.

The dream/OBE/astral/spirit realm is a less dense level of reality our consciousness has already mastered. Sometimes dreams seem very real, until you realize you are dreaming. Knowing that you are the creator of your dream (lucid dreaming) means you can fly, perform telekinesis with ease, shape shift, whatever your mind can possibly imagine. You are the god of your reality. The other people in your dreams are splinters of your own consciousness broken off. Most of the time the people in those dreams or OBE's don't realize they can fly because their consciousness has not mastered that density of reality yet.

Which brings us to our physical reality being 99.9 percent empty space.

As of now our physical reality is the most dense reality our consciousness' have ever experienced. Which is why we totally black out when entering this reality from a dream or during birth. Meaning, it is very hard to remember what happened before birth, or what happened during our dreams that night.

Everything we see or feel seems to be completely solid, however science has proven that it is actually 99.9% empty space.
It is my belief that through mediation, and visualization practices, we can train our minds to eventually bend physical reality "laws".
We have all heard stories of mothers doing miraculous things like jumping off ski lifts, or lifting cars to save their babies. I think these are stories of people tapping into the wider spectrum of consciousness, (melding their minds with their creation). I think this is where we as a species are headed, and i think the path to this reality is through meditation.

originally posted by: babybunnies
Consciousness can't exist without a brain.

Therefore, matter came first.

Matter can exist without a conscience, but not the other way around.

can consciousness exist with only a brain?

does consciousness exist without the 5 senses?

How come there are stories of people who get organ transplants and pick up memories from their donors?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: dezertdog
I think, therefore I am.

What allows you to think?

Because I am. I think. Damn I don't know, I was just trying to throw some Ram Dass one hand clapping type sh!t out there.

originally posted by: dezertdog

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: dezertdog
I think, therefore I am.

What allows you to think?

Because I am. I think. Damn I don't know, I was just trying to throw some Ram Dass one hand clapping type sh!t out there.

OK. Chicken and Egg kinda thing.

It sounds profound until you question it.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: dezertdog

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: dezertdog
I think, therefore I am.

What allows you to think?

Because I am. I think. Damn I don't know, I was just trying to throw some Ram Dass one hand clapping type sh!t out there.

OK. Chicken and Egg kinda thing.

It sounds profound until you question it.

Question everything; even thyself.

Hows that, better?

How can anything come from nothing?

I stopped asking these questions a long time ago since they don't really improve your life..

In Buddhist writings there is the idea of nama and rupa (name and form). Some interpret it as mind and matter. The writings suggest that they depend on each other to exist.

a reply to: cooperton

"Matter" does not exist.

What people think of as matter is more like an image of a concept of will; like my words here are really just shapes or images of my concepts, and my concepts are how my will has been conceived.

The image is what you see when you conceptualize will, "forces", the Spirit.

And the will, the spirit, is to conceptualize / to conceive images of its will [so as to see / feel the fruit of the spirit: love].

Which came first? Like the chicken and the egg, God the Father and God the Son are one. The first chicken egg was, is, and will be a part of the eternal chicken - there is no separation - God the Son is the body of God the Father and God the Father is the conception of God the Holy Spirit.

Father, like the soul, is the translator, the measurer, the observer, the perceiver, the abstracter, the extrapolator, or the conceiver of the spirit, and what he conceives is his body or images of the Spirit -- he is observation - your soul is observing and what it observes is images of "forces" or the Spirit(s) in you.

a reply to: cooperton

We know for sure that consciousness is true

I don't know what it means to say consciousness is "true". It's rather like saying that anger is weightless or bipedal locomotion is false. Consciousness is a biological state and there's no good evidence it can exist without a physical construct of some kind.

The All is Mind; The Universe is Mental.

More meaningless gibberish. The All is Mind? The Universe is Mental (which would literally mean "The Universe is pertaining to a mind"). Is this person saying the Universe IS a mind? I doubt it. Of course the Universe COULD be a mind, but we'd need some evidence of that, some way to show that the parts of the Universe are all interacting the way a mind does.

This is why "The Word" of the Conscious God was able to create

I don't see any reason to think the Universe was created, especially not by words. Presumably this God created the Universe out of nothing, and not nothing in the quantum physics sense but nothing in the absolute sense. In my opinion there is no such thing as absolute nothing, it is impossible for absolute nothing to be a state of affairs that exists. Without the Universe though a God's existence becomes meaningless.

Think about it for a few moments, imagine God floating around in nothingness "before" he created the Universe:

There is no time or space, so God cannot exist in any meaningful way. God cannot have the power to create without time in which to exert that power and something to exert that power on. God cannot have omniscience because there is nothing to know outside of himself without a Universe. God cannot be loving or morally good when there are no other beings to interact with. God cannot be omnipresent without time and space in which to exist.

A God without a Universe makes no sense and so too a mind without a body (or some kind of material construct) makes no sense. Consciousness only makes sense as an emergent property of a brain. In my opinion consciousness emerges naturally and it makes little sense to say otherwise whether we're talking broadly about the Cosmos or just about how life on Earth evolved.

Which came first, water or ice? It's both H2O.

E=MC2

Everything is energy and matter is dense energy.

More energy = more heat, speed, sound, light.

Less energy = less heat, speed, sound, light.

But there is never a complete lack of energy even if it seems that way to the human eye, that's an illusion as science shows (quantum physics, quantum entanglement). Everything is energy.

Have you noticed how feeling Love makes you feel warm?

Love brings warmth and movement. Maybe energy is Love and more Love means more Energy/Life?


Here is what someone who died in a hospital and saw doctors working to revive his body has to say about this topic:

"We are eternal beings! We were not “created” because we always existed, without beginning or end! We are God experiencing who we are through matter. Life is an unending circle. One day we shall all be reunited again, and again we shall “explode” and start all over again! All that can be imagined may exist because it originates from universal consciousness (knowledge), thought is creative! Here things occur with a delay, but on the other side they happen instantly. God (us) is a vibration, love and this vibration create light. The more we love, the more we emit light because we vibrate faster!" - Leonard NDE

It could be nothing.

a reply to: Titen-Sxull

Consciousness is a biological state and there's no good evidence it can exist without a physical construct of some kind.

That is stating that you do not exist. You are not aware.

Cogito ergo sum

First I think, therefore I am.

Descartes.

I think that answer the question.