Donald Trump: Deaf, Coward or Birther?

originally posted by: EvillerBob

originally posted by: theantediluvian
What should we make of this incident? Is Donald trump a deaf as his campaign manager would have us believe, is he simply a coward for not wanting to alienate the Islamaphobes and birthers in the conservative base or is he still a birther but realizes that saying so only makes him sound more crazy than he already does?

As an EU-based outsider looking in at this debate, I'm confused? I thought Obama was a muslim? Not based on what Trump has said, just based on what Obama has said and done.

There's nothing wrong with Obama being a muslim, I just didn't realise it was a matter of contention.

I can definitely understand the confusion. We don't really know for sure what nor who he really is.

He attended Jeremiah Wright's church for 20 years, but that is like you attending a church where the Grand Wizard of the KuKluxKlan stands in front of a cross preaching hate, and then you claim you were there for the "Christian" fellowship and message.

Wright preached hate against America and wrapped his so-called "Christian" message up in Black Liberation Theology (that philosophy is a real eye-opener if you care to delve into it.) Obama ate it up....because, well....that's the way he rolls. And, we do know that the Islam "call to prayer" moves him emotionally. Put it all together.

originally posted by: EvillerBob
As an EU-based outsider looking in at this debate, I'm confused? I thought Obama was a muslim? Not based on what Trump has said, just based on what Obama has said and done.

There's nothing wrong with Obama being a muslim, I just didn't realise it was a matter of contention.

It doesn't matter to me if he is or isn't Muslim. It would bother me if he lied about it though because it would underscore his lack of character. I'm an atheist and I'm not bothered by anyone's religion.

However, as I recall, the rumor was started because of this photo of Obama's school record published by the Associated Press, in 2007:




And this gaffe from an ABC News interview, in 2008:

It is neither Trump's responsibility nor is it within his RIGHTS to 'chastise' a questioner on his opinions of Obama.

The actual question about doing something about Muslim groups breeding radicalism within the U.S. was legitimate. That does need to be investigated, as radical Islam is a threat.

The questions about Obama's religion and his status as 'natural-born' citizen are NOT settled questions. Regardless of what power the Obama-controlled government has leveraged to silence the argument, they have yet to SETTLE it.

As an additional FYI, he canceled his appearance in SC prior to the town hall meeting in NH. He is not hiding.


Yes, of course there are some racists supporting Trump. Much like there are communists and fascists supporting the Dem candidates. But it is unfair to trash all of Trump supporters for the thoughts of a few, as it would be equally unfair to call all of Saunders's supporters card-carrying commies. Or, to turn it around, how fair it would be to call all of Obama's supporters radical Islam terrorists....

Now it would be fair to counter with pointing out how Obama failed to denounce and chastise the Rev. Wright's hatred toward Jews and whites, his hatred for the 'God-D America', and his calls for racial warfare....for the 20 years that Obama states he attended his 'black liberation theology' church for 'Christian fellowship".....yet Obama didn't and continues not to denounce any of it....MSM ulterior motives and hypocrisy.....

originally posted by: lakesidepark
It is neither Trump's responsibility nor is it within his RIGHTS to 'chastise' a questioner on his opinions of Obama.

Well, it certainly is 100% within Trump's RIGHT to say whatever he wants to, but I agree that it's not his responsibility. Whatsoever. It's not his responsibility to apologize, or try to soften the rhetoric spewing out of the mouths of his supporters (Trump being the most ardent supporter of himself).

The media is trying to turn Trump into a politician (like all the rest) who offer lame apologies for things they've done and said, because someone was offended. They're pressuring him to fold, knowing that his supporters will take that as a weakness and go in search of Scott Walker, Ted Cruz or, heaven forbid, Jeb Bush.

Now, I can't think of anyone who would make a worse president than Trump and I disagree with him vehemently on most of what he says, but I like his fearlessness to say things that need to be said about the state of the country. It's no wonder to me that people flock to him. Everyone has an idea of how they would have handled the question, and I like what McCain did, and respect him for it, but we are all different.

One of the biggest problems I see in our society is people demonizing people who are different. Trump is different. I think THAT should be celebrated. And I don't think he should or will back down. If he does, he's no different from all the other transparent and insincere politicians.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I saw you responded, and I feared the rabid response, knowing the side of the political spectrum you normally speak from.

Instead, (to my surprise I must admit) that is a most reasonable response, and one I would not have expected...and one I agree with fully... and yes you are correct he had the right to respond, but not the responsibility.

I further believe it is entirely reasonable (even if it is false) for the average public to believe Obama is a Muslim, and is not American, if only based on his youth, his history, and his actions in office (he WAS born a Muslim, schooled as a Muslim, grew up in a Muslim country, has mis-spoke [or slipped up] at least twice identifying himself as Muslim)...nor should it be reasonable for anyone to argue that Obama ha spoken on both issues and affirmed his religion and citizenship (as Jebbie, and Christie, and Hillary, and Saunders, have already proclaimed - they can state it as their belief but not as a fact). For the general public, once a liar, always a liar, and there are still a lot of us out here hurting from Obama's promise of 'keeping your doctor' and 'keeping your insurance' that was an outright lie.

Because Obama has already mislead us on his intentions over and over again, it would be expected for a growing segment of the public to NOT believe what he has to say on either his religion or citizenship. However, only Obama can address this, no one else.

Frankly, both those issues are moot points, to have been addressed in 2008, but too late now. Hell, even if overwhelming evidence was presented today, the only option is impeachment, and its too late for that. To continue to argue them and make it an issue in this campaign is just another distraction from our real issues of overwhelming debt, foreign wars, unmitigated immigration, and economic crisis. Obama's actions in office are the only factors relevant to the current election cycle.

Trump may be many things that may be bad or good, but a silencer of opinion he is definitely not.

Kudos for a reasoned response that puts aside the political and looks at the reality of the situation, i.e. there is not enough free discussion of the real issues facing our country, and too much political pandering from Repubs and Dems.

originally posted by: lakesidepark
The questions about Obama's religion and his status as 'natural-born' citizen are NOT settled questions.

Yes they are settled, remember how the US courts have declared Obama is a natural born US citizen? Also every silly birther court case, over 200 of them, have failed as Obama is a natural born US citizen!

originally posted by: FelisOrion
a reply to: theantediluvian

I say it once, and I'll say it again: Trump supporters scare the hell out of me. They are so brainwashed it's scary. It's like watching Jim Jones Followers.

Trump doesn't have nearly the dozy headed pie in the sky, hope and change sort of thing going on. Lots and lots of cool aid passed out back in those days.

originally posted by: hellobruce

Yes they are settled, remember how the US courts have declared Obama is a natural born US citizen? Also every silly birther court case, over 200 of them, have failed as Obama is a natural born US citizen!

I do remember several federal leftist court judges refusing to hear the cases and grant the petitioners standing to present the cases...there is also suspicion that these courts were manipulated by the administration....in fact the only thing I remember that finally 'settled' it...was Trump deciding that the evidence he had gathered indicated Obama 'probably' was a citizen and he dropped his pursuit of it.

And that settles IT, not THEY, as these cases had nothing to do with his religion. It is further suspected that the games Obama played with releasing his BC had less to do with his place of birth than it did with the possibility that the BC identified him as a Muslim.

And both are moot to the subject at hand, whether the Donald should have corrected the questioner. He answered the question, and did not address the accusations, and that is what the uproar is all about. My statements on the matter are only pointing out the legitimate reasons that there is a large segment of the population that still distrusts Obama on these two points, and Obama himself hasn't acted or responded in a way that addresses this distrust (and on the religion aspect, has acted in ways that cultivates even more distrust). Further Obama has proven that he will actively lie to the public to achieve his goals.

So why should Trump take this on? This misperception of Obama is Obama's problem, he owns it, and he cultivated this mistrust thru his own actions.

originally posted by: lakesidepark
I do remember several federal leftist court judges refusing to hear the cases and grant the petitioners standing to present the cases

Care to detail those court cases?

...there is also suspicion that these courts were manipulated by the administration

There is? Care to detail that suspicion? Unless......

It is further suspected that the games Obama played with releasing his BC

What games were they? Remember, no previous President released his BC, I wonder what is different about Obama.... let us look at pictures of previous Presidents....oh, the answer is obvious! Funny how some people insisted the first black President had to release his BC and all sorts of other personal information.

had less to do with his place of birth than it did with the possibility that the BC identified him as a Muslim.

Hawaiian birth certificates do not mention religion!

desert steps back on scale to weigh in with another opinion......con artist. Does he shout out some things I agree with? Yes. Those are things that many can agree on, but either he says nothing more about it or else he offers some fantastical solution. It's like a banner headline without the story to follow.

And that's the trap of the con artist. He gains your confidence, before he goes in for the sting. And you come out the loser, not him. And if you say that you've never been prey to a con artist, then somewhere out there is a great con artist.

To watch Trump with his act, is like watching a con artist at work, or a carnival barker, who will convince you to do/buy something you don't want to do. If the con is good, and the harm is low, one might even laugh along with the scam artist.

One clue about the authoritarian megalomania that Trump is, think about the Great Trump Wall he says he would build. It really doesn't differ from any of the other structures built by authoritarian leaders. Think about the "Stalinist Wedding Cake" Parliament structure in Romania by dictator Nicolae Ceausescu.

What if he had been asked questions like these? 21 Questions for Donald Trump Maybe he'ld respond with his $3 website, another idea based in fantasy.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: FelisOrion
a reply to: theantediluvian

I say it once, and I'll say it again: Trump supporters scare the hell out of me. They are so brainwashed it's scary. It's like watching Jim Jones Followers.

Trump doesn't have nearly the dozy headed pie in the sky, hope and change sort of thing going on. Lots and lots of cool aid passed out back in those days.

So having Mexicans build a wall along the border to keep the Mexicans in Mexico, isn't pie in the sky? Like Desert said, Trump is a fantastic con man to get his fans to believe his BS.

I wonder what flavor of Kool aid Trump serves to his devotees?

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: amazing


I disagree, because if there was anything to it, it would have been found and broadcast loudly. You're telling me the billionaires like Trump and the Koch brothers to name just two people that could have funded some serious research into it and paid off some people and fox news, drudge, limbaugh and all the rest would have been broadcasting anything found for years.

They haven't, nothing more than insinuations and small investigations. Meaning there must be nothing there and it's just a smear campaign.

No. You're wrong. I wrote an open records request to the Hawaii Department of Health, in 2011, and requested a copy of the seal that was photographed by Factcheck.org, on the back of Obama's short form birth certificate. They responded that they did not maintain the seal photographed. I asked because I noticed the seal on his birth certificate was debossed -- not embossed. And I noticed Factcheck captioned a photo of the wrong side of the seal and labeled it as being raised (embossed).

Immediately after I got that response, Donald Trump took a sudden interest in calling for Obama's long form birth certificate. Obama released it and all eyes were diverted to it, forevermore.

I spent enough time trying to get the media to acknowledge the response I received to tell you -- they would never report what i found.

And I am an atheist, as socially liberal as anyone you could ever meet, and completely nonpartisan.

My curiosity about the issue just got the best of me. Something was off about the issue from day one.

You're missing the bigger point. Do you not think that with all of the resources at their disposal that Republicans couldn't have forced this issue? It doesn't make any sense. Why only a few talk radio and small blog personalities pushing this issue? It must mean that the ones who control the republican party wanted Obama in power over Romney. Where's the sense in that? That conspiracy is too deep to even comprehend.

Simplifying it. Occam's razor dictates that he simplest answer is usually the correct one.

You see what I'm saying, right?

originally posted by: amazing

You're missing the bigger point. Do you not think that with all of the resources at their disposal that Republicans couldn't have forced this issue? It doesn't make any sense. Why only a few talk radio and small blog personalities pushing this issue? It must mean that the ones who control the republican party wanted Obama in power over Romney. Where's the sense in that? That conspiracy is too deep to even comprehend.

Simplifying it. Occam's razor dictates that he simplest answer is usually the correct one.

You see what I'm saying, right?

Ha! No, in my opinion, you are missing the larger point: The two parties are influenced by the same Global Establishment.

And here's my Occam's Razor Test:

The Hawaii Department of Health (HDOH) stated they do not maintain the seal debossment photographed on Obama's short form birth certificate. I was personally sent that response from the Hawaii Department of Health (HDOH) in response to an open records request I sent under the Uniform Information Practices Act.

For me to believe that I am somehow mistaken or they lied, I would have to overlook the following:

1. The Hawaii Administrative Rules describe the official HDOH seal and require that it be "embossed" when used by the Director of Health in an official capacity. The rules give the Director exclusive control over the reproduction and use of the seal, but the discretion to deviate from the stated description of the official seal is restricted to size changes only:

HAR§11-1-2 – Seal of the department of health.

(b) The official seal of the department of health shall be EMBOSSED near the signature of the director of health to verify commissions of appointment of deputy directors and notaries public, certificates, and other formal official documents on which the official seal has been customarily used or is appropriate to be used, as the director of health may determine on a case-by-case basis.

Source

2. The Hawaii Department of Health vital records regulations promulgated by the Director of Health state the seal used by their agency and the Office of Health Status Monitoring (OHSM) to issue certified copies of vital records must be a "raised" seal:

Hawaii Public Health Regulations, Chapter 8b

2.4 Issuance of Certified Copies of Vital Records
B. Standards for Copies of Vital Records
(1) Standard Copy
(b) Form of certification. Standard certified copies shall contain an appropriate certification statement over the signature of the registrar having custody of the record and be impressed with the RAISED seal of the issuing office. The signature may be photographed or entered by mechanical means. The paper shall display the official seal of the Department of Health or the seal of the State.

[AND]

(2) Abbreviated Copy
(b) Form of certification. This will be the same as for a standard certified copy.

Source

3. A written statement from Hawaii's Office of Information Practices (OIP) indicates that the HDOH's seal is embossed. On December 14, 2010, Cathy Takase, OIP Acting Director made the following statement in response to an inquiry pertaining to a request for copies of the HDOH official seal made under Hawaii's Open Records Law, the Uniform Information Practices Act (UIPA):

I respond to your inquiry generally as follows:  I believe that  a copy in printed form must be disclosed, but that it is likely that DOH may refuse to provide a blank piece of paper with the actual RAISED EMBOSSED seal under the UIPA's frustration exception because the embossed seal is used only for the purpose of authenticating official records.  Thus, to provide a copy in that form would frustrate DOH's function of maintaining the integrity of its official records.   HRS § 92F-13(3).  I cannot speak to something that may have been given to the printer to create the actual device used without more information.

4. Two written statements directly issued by staff at the HDOH through open records requests indicate their official seal is an embossment. On December 4 and December 10, 2010, HDOH Public Information Staff wrote the following and disclosedcopies of two raised seals in response to request made under the UIPA for a copy of the HDOH official seal:

Based on your request, we provide you with a copy of the Department of Health seal as described in HAR §11-1-2; this seal is an EMBOSSMENT.

AND

Attached is a graphited copy of the EMBOSSED Department of Health seal. Regarding the remainder of your request, we have no records responsive to your request.

5. Janice Okubo, Director of Communications for the Hawaii Department of Health stated on multiple occasions, in 2008, that the seal used to certify copies of birth records in Hawaii is embossed on the back of those type copies. Politifact reported the following about the 'invisible seal' in the initial images released of Obama's alleged COLB:

"The Hawaii Department of Health receives about a dozen e-mail inquiries a day about Obama's birth certificate, spokesman Okubo said.

"I guess the big issue that's being raised is the lack of an EMBOSSED seal and a signature," Okubo said, pointing out that in Hawaii, both those things are on the back of the document. "Because they scanned the front … you wouldn't see those things."

Okubo says she got a copy of her own birth certificate last year and it is identical to the Obama one we received.

And about the copy we e-mailed her for verification? "When we looked at that image you guys sent us, our registrar, he thought he could see pieces of the EMBOSSED image through it."

Still, she acknowledges: "I don't know that it's possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents."

www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/
www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp
www.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg

Continued below...

a reply to: amazing

Continued from above:

6. In June 2008, Ms. Okubo told the Israel Insider that "all" certified copies of COLBs are certified the same way: with an embossed seal. In an article that featured a photo of the reverse side of an embossed HDOH seal, Ms. Okubo was quoted, as follows, and the following backside of an embossed seal was published:

“In the State of Hawaii all certified copies of certificates of live birth have the EMBOSSED seal and registrar signature on the back of the document.”

Source


7. Before FactCheck.org published their photographs of the seal debossment, on the back of Obama's COLB, Janice Okubo indicated that if we were to ever see the seal with any clarity, we should expect to see it embossed on the back of the document. On June 26, 2008, Jim Geraghty of the National Review Online referred to the same photo of an embossed HDOH seal, in reverse, and wrote the following when he questioned Ms. Okubo about the seal's visibility on Obama's alleged COLB:

I spoke to Ms. Okubo late Wednesday afternoon, and she said she had seen the version of Obama’s certificate of live birth posted on the sites. While her office cannot verify the information on a form without the permission of the certificate holder (Obama), she said “the form is exactly the same” and it has “all the components of a birth certificate” record issued by the state. In other words, she sees no reason to think the version posted on Obama’s web site and Daily Kos is not genuine.

The “EMBOSSED SEAL” in question is, she said, probably on the back of the document provided to Daily Kos, but not visible (as in another certificate posted on Israel Insider for contrast). She thinks the difference in visibility can be attributed to the pressure used when applying the seal.

On the other hand, for me to believe they were telling the truth, I have to satisfy the possibility that the media has a blackout on the issue -- and that is obvious.

And I would have to believe that several short form Hawaii COLBs on the internet that have the same seal debossment are also fake.

So I spent SIX MONTHS researching these COLBs bearing the same seal debossment Obama's COLB bears. And what I found is compelling -- and disturbing -- evidence that there were, in fact, people who planted images of fraudulent COLBs on the internet.

Researching the origins of those COLBs helped me glean an amazing amount of information about the inner-workings of the U.S. political system. And, in the end, not a single one of those COLBs with the same debossed and fraudulent seal could be verified as authentic by the HDOH.

I could write a book about the people who posted these fraudulent copies.

In a debate using Occam's razor. I win.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: amazing

You're missing the bigger point. Do you not think that with all of the resources at their disposal that Republicans couldn't have forced this issue? It doesn't make any sense. Why only a few talk radio and small blog personalities pushing this issue? It must mean that the ones who control the republican party wanted Obama in power over Romney. Where's the sense in that? That conspiracy is too deep to even comprehend.

Simplifying it. Occam's razor dictates that he simplest answer is usually the correct one.

You see what I'm saying, right?

Ha! No, in my opinion, you are missing the larger point: The two parties are influenced by the same Global Establishment.

And here's my Occam's Razor Test:

The Hawaii Department of Health (HDOH) stated they do not maintain the seal debossment photographed on Obama's short form birth certificate. I was personally sent that response from the Hawaii Department of Health (HDOH) in response to an open records request I sent under the Uniform Information Practices Act.

For me to believe that I am somehow mistaken or they lied, I would have to overlook the following:

1. The Hawaii Administrative Rules describe the official HDOH seal and require that it be "embossed" when used by the Director of Health in an official capacity. The rules give the Director exclusive control over the reproduction and use of the seal, but the discretion to deviate from the stated description of the official seal is restricted to size changes only:

HAR§11-1-2 – Seal of the department of health.

(b) The official seal of the department of health shall be EMBOSSED near the signature of the director of health to verify commissions of appointment of deputy directors and notaries public, certificates, and other formal official documents on which the official seal has been customarily used or is appropriate to be used, as the director of health may determine on a case-by-case basis.

2. The Hawaii Department of Health vital records regulations promulgated by the Director of Health state the seal used by their agency and the Office of Health Status Monitoring (OHSM) to issue certified copies of vital records must be a "raised" seal:

Hawaii Public Health Regulations, Chapter 8b

2.4 Issuance of Certified Copies of Vital Records
B. Standards for Copies of Vital Records
(1) Standard Copy
(b) Form of certification. Standard certified copies shall contain an appropriate certification statement over the signature of the registrar having custody of the record and be impressed with the RAISED seal of the issuing office. The signature may be photographed or entered by mechanical means. The paper shall display the official seal of the Department of Health or the seal of the State.

[AND]

(2) Abbreviated Copy
(b) Form of certification. This will be the same as for a standard certified copy.

gen.doh.hawaii.gov... 8A B VR Admin Rules.pdf



3. A written statement from Hawaii's Office of Information Practices (OIP) indicates that the HDOH's seal is embossed. On December 14, 2010, Cathy Takase, OIP Acting Director made the following statement in response to an inquiry pertaining to a request for copies of the HDOH official seal made under Hawaii's Open Records Law, the Uniform Information Practices Act (UIPA):

I respond to your inquiry generally as follows:  I believe that  a copy in printed form must be disclosed, but that it is likely that DOH may refuse to provide a blank piece of paper with the actual RAISED EMBOSSED seal under the UIPA's frustration exception because the embossed seal is used only for the purpose of authenticating official records.  Thus, to provide a copy in that form would frustrate DOH's function of maintaining the integrity of its official records.   HRS § 92F-13(3).  I cannot speak to something that may have been given to the printer to create the actual device used without more information.

5. Two written statements directly issued by staff at the HDOH through open records requests indicate their official seal is an embossment. On December 4 and December 10, 2010, HDOH Public Information Staff wrote the following and disclosedcopies of two raised seals in response to request made under the UIPA for a copy of the HDOH official seal:

Based on your request, we provide you with a copy of the Department of Health seal as described in HAR §11-1-2; this seal is an EMBOSSMENT.

AND

Attached is a graphited copy of the EMBOSSED Department of Health seal. Regarding the remainder of your request, we have no records responsive to your request.

5. Janice Okubo, Director of Communications for the Hawaii Department of Health stated on multiple occasions, in 2008, that the seal used to certify copies of birth records in Hawaii is embossed on the back of those type copies. Politifact reported the following about the 'invisible seal' in the initial images released of Obama's alleged COLB:

"The Hawaii Department of Health receives about a dozen e-mail inquiries a day about Obama's birth certificate, spokesman Okubo said.

"I guess the big issue that's being raised is the lack of an EMBOSSED seal and a signature," Okubo said, pointing out that in Hawaii, both those things are on the back of the document. "Because they scanned the front … you wouldn't see those things."

Okubo says she got a copy of her own birth certificate last year and it is identical to the Obama one we received.

And about the copy we e-mailed her for verification? "When we looked at that image you guys sent us, our registrar, he thought he could see pieces of the EMBOSSED image through it."

Still, she acknowledges: "I don't know that it's possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents."

www.politifact.com...
www.snopes.com...
www.snopes.com...


Continued below....

But the problem is this: Why isn't anyone with any power pushing this and investigating this? Why are right wing pundits, insinuating things rather then pushing them?

You may be right, but how come the hundreds of millions of people that hate Obama aren't pursuing this, why just you?

originally posted by: amazing


But the problem is this: Why isn't anyone with any power pushing this and investigating this? Why are right wing pundits, insinuating things rather then pushing them?

You may be right, but how come the hundreds of millions of people that hate Obama aren't pursuing this, why just you?

Other people have pursued this. I just took the time to understand Hawaii's open records law and because I am a graphic designer, I had confidence in knowing that the fact that the seal was debossed, not embossed, was significant. It required someone specifically ordering a device to impress a seal in the OPPOSITE way seals have been traditionally applied.

And no one will report the story because the media is manipulated. And the republicans don't care, because they are in cahoots with democrats -- there is ONE Establishment and both parties serve it.

It is a cold, hard fact. Both parties are dirty. Equally and awfully dirty.

The realization of this fact will set your mind free.

a reply to: amazing

NOT if SOROs covered it up with bigger money,it wouldn't

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: amazing

NOT if SOROs covered it up with bigger money,it wouldn't

But if this is right vs left, there is just as much, or enough money on the right to counter that. Koch Brothers are just the tip of the iceberg.

a reply to: amazing

Admiralty law is manipulated by politics,most of the time power can render obviousand clear crimes innocent,it appears the powerbrokers have learned from Watergate.

a reply to: amazing

Far right Globalists want WAR as their objective ,so THEY ARE manipulating EVERYTHING and are the ones who have the money.
They have the FED they really couldn't care less about who is in office party wise,they'll toe the line if they want to get paid.
Why else would a supposed progressive president have his fingers in more seperate conflicts that any president before,out side of a national emergency?