Migrant crisis: Hungarian police use tear gas, water cannon on refugees

a reply to: antar

Women, children and elderly first!!!

Who benefits the most if millions of refugees descend upon Europe...and nationalism rears it's head...borders get closed...the EU begins to unravel.

Who benefits the most? I would guess both Russia and the United States. Each keeps a toe in Syria, helping one side, this one or another. Maintaining a presence close to all the countries who may love the US now, but could fall in live with Russia if the offer is right.

Alliances can change. Interests determine the alliances.

This flood of refugees could truly turn the EU back into a smattering of self-serving nation states, each thinking their neighbor isn't doing their part or holding their own, and thus becoming an economic and cultural liability. If the benefits of the EU membership shrivels and the disparity grows between the richer and weaker countries, some will drift away, or form mini-alliances perhaps sparking mini-skirmishes that creates more instability.

Russia wouldn't mind picking countries from the fringes of the EU and bring them home. The more that join up with Russia, the weaker the EU as a whole, so less of a threat to Russia.


Russia wins some in this by EU squabbling and absorbing this shock to both culture and economy.

Europe loses.
.
The United States is immune to most of the fallout.

I think both the United States and Russia are loving the refugees pouring into Europe--at least from a geopolitical point of view.

And watch...if there aren't enough refugees from Syria--Turkey would get dragged in to create more.

Or, there is a long list of unstable countries that would unravel if an ISIS or rebellion started there.

Oh, and if OPEC keeps pumping oil, Russia won't be able to sustain their budgets with oil prices low, so they end up suffering.

And then it's just the USA.

Just thinking. Thoughts?

a reply to: EStreetShuffle

Nice little fantasy there, but not very grounded in reality...

Firstly, Russia wouldn't be able to "pick" anyone off - even if the EU crumbles, there is no love lost between many of the former Soviet states and Russia - that's not even before we mention NATO.

As for being "immune to shocks", as the largest economy in the World, a crumbling EU would reverberate shock waves globally. With China stalling, a collapse of the EU economy would completely ruin the global economy for many, many years. The US would be dragged down with it.

And, if the ultimate crumbling took place and Europe descended into actual fighting, the world would burn. The most destructive Wars this planet has ever seen originated in Europe. The US is very keen on keeping the EU together for this reason amongst others, even to the point they are worried about just the UK leaving.

a reply to: stumason


Just imagine for a second you are really persecuted.

The Syrian capital and its outskirts remain a key strategic area of control. While the regime has succeeded in using sieges and intensive air strike campaigns to negotiate truces with various armed groups in and around the city, fighting continues between government forces and opposition fighters. Government forces have reportedly begun fortifying approaches to Damascus and Latakia in the north west in order to protect their core territory.

www.bbc.com...

Why should anyone risk the danger of entering the city let alone the airport then?
They pay high sums to arrive savely.

"My first contact," says the Syrian, "was through a middleman in Damascus named Abu Jafir." Jafir had insisted that the total fee for the trip to Italy -- €7,000 ($8,735) per person -- be paid in advance.

www.spiegel.de...

Damascus, that's right.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Still not sure why you're flogging this dead horse of yours....

I said in the original post, they could have flown from Istanbul...

Perhaps you need to go back and re-read what I have said, then consult an atlas of some kind?

a reply to: stumason

I was just speculating about who benefits most from a flood of refugees.

I was just speculating about who benefits most from a flood of refugees who may make themselves unwanted where they land.

That would be Russia I guess.

I have tried not to comment on this topic as anyone that shows logic, asks important questions and is rightfully concerned gets shot down and called a racist instantly.

The migrants here were protesting and trying to tear down/get through the border walls the Hungarians have put up, how else do you expect the police to react to this?

These people seem to believe it is their right to do what they wish, go where they wish, and are not abiding by the laws of the lands they are trespassing in, they are showing no respect for the countries and the people who are wanting to help them either!

My heart weeps for the poor children and genuine refugees caught up in this circus - though its getting harder and harder to feel compassion as their actions speak the opposite of the sob story the media is trying to put on us.

a reply to: Lilyth

Then tell Orban to tear down those walls, maybe?

How is free passage not a human right, is that some kinda new Eastblock you folks build up there?

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Free passage is not a Human right, not sure why you think it is.

After all, I'd love to go and live in Colorado or California, but I cannot just go marching up to the US border and demand to be let in. There are rules I have to adhere to if I wish to emigrate.

If you had your way and everyone could go where they wish, unhindered, it would be chaos. Everyone in the world would move to Western nations where people have personal freedoms, the State looks after them and opportunity exists which would only end up making those very nations as bad as the ones they came from, or worse.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

As stumason has said it is not a Human right! What kind of Utopian society do you live in that it is not only a Human right but also a good idea?

To put simply there are legal ways for these people to come to Europe and they are choosing not to do so.

For people that are happy to be escaping from war torn countries they are incredibly ungrateful.

i love the new liberalism which flouts all law and order for the sake of political correctness. Just lovely.


For all those who think its such a good idea to let the rabble in you can start by housing some of the 72% strapping young male bottle and rock throwers....make sure to post proof of it then ill consider you more than just a spewer or nonsense.

I always thought that if you are desperate and hungry and scared, you'll be glad and grateful for any hand that gives you food and shelter away from danger. I thought that you'd be humble and do whatever is needed for the 'major' favour to be let into another country out of empathy, especially when working people who want to immigrate there will not have it that easy.

If you are given food that isn't halal, then you'll eat it [after all it is written in the koran that you can make exceptions in dire times]. If the host [who isn't the richest country in the world] is willing to provide even only blankets, you will snuggle up in them and have a good nights sleep, knowing that you and your children are safe!!!!!

If things don't go as you wish, then sit peacefully and show that you are peaceful people who desperately need help and the world would bend over backwards to help.
If you flee from a war torn country you'll be glad for the first friendly encounter and not strive for a different 'better' place.

If you have so much anger that you are willing to 'fight' the hand that offered help, then why don't you use this anger against those that caused you to have to uproot your life? They are more angry against Hungary than they are against ISIS. Hungary causes them to act, ISIS doesn't?


This is only their side. Now to the other side. Our side. I don't think people in general would be so heartless as to condemn actual suffering refugees that have walked for hundredths of miles and died of starvation because they are so desperate.

However what we are dealing with here is young, healthy men [and a few women and kids thrown in for good measures], who don't look starved, who have plenty of energy and mobile phones I am jealous of [mine is 8 years old].
My sympathy quickly waned when safety wasn't the top priority of these people but safety 'IN THE RIGHT COUNTRY'.

My sympathy waned when I see young angry men believing in some sort of entitlement 'just because' [read: we have heard that in Europe you can get anything if you just tell the right sob story and demand human rights].
My sympathy is not with young men that legg it form their country in droves and leave women and children behind.
Do they have no spines? I didn't see Brits leaving during WW2.

My sympathy goes down even more when these men come from a country that is in the grips of an extreme religious group whose members have the same religion as those that come here and who look exactly like those that come here and who has said that they will send their own amongst the so called 'refugees'.

I would be a brainless idiot moron if I just let anyone in just because they make the right noise [holding up babies, crying women].
These are crafty people but if you get your brain in gear then you'll notice that they are not very clever in their execution. Whilst I am sure there are some real refugees amongst these people, I have to assume that there are also a good amount of those that are not.
There are so many red flags going up just observing these people's behaviour. We MUST let them know that even in kaffir Europe, we have rules that need to be observed.

I just want to mention something I saw when Fukushima blew up. Thousands of Japanese people were uprooted from their homes and put into common shelter, with just a mattress and blanket. Oh My God, the dignity with which these families accepted the situation, the order and humbleness, the gratefulness of just having somewhere to stay in the bad weather at the time. I was so impressed by that, I nearly cried and wished I could have helped every single one of them.

I would have let them all into Britain and never said a word, because there was no entitlement, no violence against the hand that helped and downright civilised behaviour, which could only be an asset to any country.

Call me what you want but I don't want angry muslims in Britain. I really don't. I know that nobody [bar a handful] will integrate, that nobody will be grateful, that nobody will accept our way of life, that they will form little islands of the country they left behind and last but not least, I know 100% that amongst them will be some that will happily do harm to us. Why on earth would I want that?


I am not saying that anyone should't feel sorry for the genuine refugees amongst them, but you musn't leave your rationality behind and put your own children into danger just to look caring. Surely even those that want to accept all of these people with open arms MUST see that not all of them are genuine and that the non-genuine ones are people who want us all DEAD. I am a woman and an atheist and I am not on their friend-list. I don't like islam as it is nowadays, I don't want people who sympathise with isis in Europe.

We should be listening to our forefathers who had a few good quotes, probably to warn us against islam. Remember you may find the website [one-sided], these quotes were made long before the existence of this site:

goo.gl...

Why don't we ever listen to people who have been there?

a reply to: Lilyth

Exactly, ungrateful Economic Migrants who came expecting to be spoon fed by everyone on their way to the land of milk and honey AKA "Germany good life".



That is the very reason Orban has become even more strict(and many more valid reasons), the ones who already went through Hungary left a trail of garbage and filth wherever they went without a speck of respect to the environment let alone the country or the citizens who have to clean up their garbage along the way and bow down while doing it or be called a "racist".

they clashed with police and threw rocks at civilians who did nothing to them, they threw away food/water/supplies that were given to them, they attacked and snatched food/water from people that were trying to distribute it equally, and the list goes on.

"poor refugees fleeing war" ??, look how violent they are already throwing rocks and burning anything and everything they can get their hands on, where was this rage and violence when they were in Syria? where was this fighting spirit when they needed to fight for their country?, if that is even where they came from, since a lot of them refuse to register or magically lost their documents and pretend to be Syrian.

Orban is doing what needs to be done and what should have been done from the beginning with order and by law, and he will not falter no matter what the media or that goblin Merkel say.

@Hecate666 you are right 100%, people need to wake up, but they are too blind and call anyone who speaks with logic and reason a "racist".

As i said in another similarly themed thread , if my country was war torn i cant imagine in any circumstances travelling across several Christian countries to go live in a Muslim one . I guess i am saying , why would i , unless i was planning on spreading Christianity in those places . Why in the hell would you pass through a Muslim country to live amongst Christians , unless you wanted to spread Islam .

SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

.

hecate very very well put with excellent measured tone and articulate points. This issue is designed to put emotion before reason and it shows in our discourse. We could all benefit from a more civilised tone, especially me.

a reply to: Hecate666

Excellent post.

If the refugees are so upset about food boxes with what they think are crosses on them, why don't we give them the food boxes that were prepared by the many muslim nations who must surely want to help their own....

/crickets

There is no right of free passage?
Are you guys nuts or in full denial?

Article 13.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.

(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15.

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

www.un.org...

Yeah. Chew on that whilst building more walls of ignorance.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
There is no right of free passage?
Are you guys nuts or in full denial?

No, it seems you are, along with a healthy dose of being unable to read.

here, I'll help you...

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
Article 13.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

See. It doesn't say anywhere in there you have the right to to enter any State at all. All that does is confer freedom of movement within a State. The second part just guarantees the right to leave any State and return to your own, not someone else's.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Irrelevant. There are rules governing who can claim asylum, why they can claim it and where.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
Article 15.

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

These people aren't Stateless, so a moot point.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
Yeah. Chew on that whilst building more walls of ignorance.

Haha, yeah, it's been chewed.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
There is no right of free passage?
Are you guys nuts or in full denial?

Article 14.

(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.


Yeah. Chew on that whilst building more walls of ignorance.

Section 1 of Article 14 is the only part of your post that is even remotely applicable. Except you are missing the point. "Every has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution."

Where does it say that other countries are required to accept their plea for asylum? Where does it say other countries are required to absorb the financial and logistic requirements for their asylum? It doesn't. They are free to seek asylum anywhere. And the countries in which they seek asylum are free to deny them at any time for any reason. And the UN charter makes no mention of requiring those countries to list their reasons or be subjected to ridicule or have their decision overridden by the UN, the media, or individuals who think they know better.

Hungary took the EU benefits greedily enough now they they should be forced to share in its responsibilities.
I don't believe the refugees want to stay in that sh!th@le anyway.
Typical take take take............