Defeat The Right In Three Minutes

a reply to: xuenchen

Alright, alright guys pack it up. We were defeated three hours ago now.

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: xuenchen

Alright, alright guys pack it up. We were defeated three hours ago now.

But I'm not extreme right wing...I can't be defeated...

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: xuenchen

Alright, alright guys pack it up. We were defeated three hours ago now.

Defeated? I wasn't aware that a debate ever actually started.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

Why ask me? I'm not in poverty. AsK them. I don't have that answer...I do work hard and live within my means. My wife started her own business with no money and is successful.

What a crappy answer. It's a good thing you aren't in charge of any legislation.

In your opinion has the handout program worked? If not, then why put more in?

Why ask me? I'm not in poverty either. (if it works for you, I might as well use that lame excuse too)

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Indigo5

(and yeah, I noticed you're rolling with Social Security and Medicare... the only trow federal welfare programs which are designed to be self supporting, require input from the recipients, and shouldn't cost the tax payer a cent... as opposed to all the subsidies, the ACA, and the other actual entitlement programs out there.)

Nope...I was fair with the math...I included SNAP et al. in expenses and only included SS and Med as revenue...

Try again..

originally posted by: kaylaluv

Why ask me? I'm not in poverty either. (if it works for you, I might as well use that lame excuse too)

Then what the hell are you complaining about? How did you make money? were you given handouts and charity? Are you just lucky? Or did you work for it?

a reply to: TechniXcality

No, the pass was intercepted... We were essential Superbowl Richard Sherman in reverse...

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: xuenchen

Alright, alright guys pack it up. We were defeated three hours ago now.

I don't know about the OPs general premise...and I am no Hillary fan...

but IMO when this guy is your champion and savior, you might question the direction your party has taken and reflect a little on if the arrogance is warranted.



G'day yall..and good luck with that.

a reply to: Indigo5

www.chicagotribune.com...

But wait. Direct government spending isn't the only way that societies provide social services. They also channel payments through private companies, encouraged, regulated and subsidized by government. This is what the United States does, notably with employer-provided health insurance (which is subsidized by government by not counting employer contributions as taxable income) and tax-favored retirement savings accounts.

When these are added to government's direct payments, rankings shift. France remains at the top, but the United States vaults into second position with roughly 30 percent of its GDP spent on social services, including health care. We have a hybrid welfare state, partly run by the government and partly outsourced to private markets.

US GDP = $18.1 Trillion
30% of that GDP = $5.43 Trillion spent on social services...

This includes one of the largest crimes in American history, the funneling of assets away from the middle class to fund the ACA.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: kaylaluv

Why ask me? I'm not in poverty either. (if it works for you, I might as well use that lame excuse too)

Then what the hell are you complaining about? How did you make money? were you given handouts and charity? Are you just lucky? Or did you work for it?

Gotta love this...Is it incomprehensible that someone might care about the welfare of others?

I own three businesses and employ 38 people at the moment.

I am a capitalist through and through...doesn't make me GOP...for effs sake..

originally posted by: Indigo5
but IMO when this guy is your champion and savior, you might question the direction your party has taken and reflect a little on if the arrogance is warranted.

Could not agree with you more (except the "my party" part... I'm not a member of the GOP by any means, way too liberal for my liking.)

The fact that we presently have a devout socialist running against a devout ... what the hell ever hybrid of jackass, liberal, and tactless bag of vinegar and water Trump is, leading their respective parties for the highest position in the land indicates America is in her twilight years and waiting for the plug to be pulled and her estate to be divided amongst the children (states), so they can go their own way and be done with her.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: ketsuko

So when is the right going to create this thriving economy you speak of that will give jobs to every single person alive? Oh and not just a job, but a job that pays a living wage to every single person alive?

I don't know. When will the right get the chance to try their ideas, and notice that the Republicans do not automatically = the right. If they did, they wouldn't spend so much time disparaging people on the right.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: kaylaluv

Why ask me? I'm not in poverty either. (if it works for you, I might as well use that lame excuse too)

Then what the hell are you complaining about? How did you make money? were you given handouts and charity? Are you just lucky? Or did you work for it?

I was indeed lucky. My parents paid for my college education. They also helped me financially once I graduated until I could adequately support myself. I wasn't born in poverty and neither were my parents. That doesn't mean I can't have some empathy for people who are born in poverty, with multiple generations of poverty, where college is just a pipe dream, and the only perceived way out of poverty is a life of crime.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Vasa Croe

That's because there will NEVER be a perfect thriving economy where everyone will get the perfect job making the perfect salary. There will always be a percentage of the population that will be unable to earn a living wage. What to do with those poor unfortunate souls? The right wants to ignore them. The left wants to share the wealth and help them, still encouraging them to get on their feet with free education, job training, etc.

The difference here is the "right" isn't trying to force the other side to do anything with their money whatsoever. The "left", however, has taken it upon themselves to dictate what the other side will do with their money. I'll be blunt, I don't give a crap if someone decides to take their entire net worth, liquidate it, and then run through skid row throwing fistfulls of their own cash hilly nilly. IT ISN'T MY MONEY, SO IT ISN'T MY BUSINESS. All I ask is that the "left" leaves me the hell alone. I think that's what the vast majority of the so-called 20% in America want... to be left.the.snip.alone.

I wouldn't go anywhere near you. You smell funny (see your first post).

But, yeah, okay. We'll leave you alone. You however, are no longer allowed to drive on the roads we pay for, bank at/get loans from any institution with federal insurance, get mail, send your kids to the schools we all pay for, ever call the fire department or police department or get any other kind of assistance, such as Medicare or disability or Social Security or or workers comp or flood insurance or help when your employer decides to cut all your breaks or any other kind of assistance from any county, state, or federal services we all pay for, and so on and so forth.

So that pretty much leaves just sitting in that armchair and bellowing on about how self-sufficient you are. Yeah. I know. You'll inspect your own food that you grow, become a volunteer firefighter or cop, put your money in your mattress, teach your own children, keep your guns clean for when the guberment comes for ya, and plow snow for all your neighbors...cept for those damn liberals. And you'll do it all for free in your spare time with your own money. Mmmhmm.

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

Why ask me? I'm not in poverty. AsK them. I don't have that answer...I do work hard and live within my means. My wife started her own business with no money and is successful.

What a crappy answer. It's a good thing you aren't in charge of any legislation.

In your opinion has the handout program worked? If not, then why put more in?

Why ask me? I'm not in poverty either. (if it works for you, I might as well use that lame excuse too)

Oh...I'm sorry, maybe I should have told you my back story again about living out of a car and working my way back out of poverty, but that wouldn't fit your agenda of saying it's not possible would it?

See...I speak from experience...you're speaking from wants and hopes.

And I will add that I would never want to be in charge of deciding how people spend the money they earn themselves, except for my own that is...

originally posted by: ~Lucidity

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Vasa Croe

That's because there will NEVER be a perfect thriving economy where everyone will get the perfect job making the perfect salary. There will always be a percentage of the population that will be unable to earn a living wage. What to do with those poor unfortunate souls? The right wants to ignore them. The left wants to share the wealth and help them, still encouraging them to get on their feet with free education, job training, etc.

The difference here is the "right" isn't trying to force the other side to do anything with their money whatsoever. The "left", however, has taken it upon themselves to dictate what the other side will do with their money. I'll be blunt, I don't give a crap if someone decides to take their entire net worth, liquidate it, and then run through skid row throwing fistfulls of their own cash hilly nilly. IT ISN'T MY MONEY, SO IT ISN'T MY BUSINESS. All I ask is that the "left" leaves me the hell alone. I think that's what the vast majority of the so-called 20% in America want... to be left.the.snip.alone.

I wouldn't go anywhere near you. You smell funny (see your first post).

But, yeah, okay. We'll leave you alone. You however, are no longer allowed to drive on the roads we pay for, bank at/get loans from any institution with federal insurance, get mail, send your kids to the schools we all pay for, ever call the fire department or police department or get any other kind of assistance, such as Medicare or disability or Social Security or or workers comp or flood insurance or help when your employer decides to cut all your breaks or any other kind of assistance from any county, state, or federal services we all pay for, and so on and so forth.

So that pretty much leaves just sitting in that armchair and bellowing on about how self-sufficient you are. Yeah. I know. You'll inspect your own food that you grow, become a volunteer firefighter or cop, put your money in your mattress, teach your own children, keep your guns clean for when the guberment comes for ya, and plow snow for all your neighbors...cept for those damn liberals. And you'll do it all for free in your spare time with your own money. Mmmhmm.

They will just say that those things you listed are "different". But in reality it's not. They may complain about what you and I believe in, but they end up enjoying it when it's implemented.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

Not everyone is as fantastic as you. Some people need a little extra help. Maybe they aren't as smart as you. Maybe they have been told all their life that they are worthless, stupid and won't amount to anything, and they ended up believing it. Maybe as a teen girl, they had little self-worth, so they slept with some guys and got pregnant a few times. Now those men might have disappeared and the teen grows up with a family of her own to take care of, no support, trying to feed 3 or 4 kids, and no clue how to get herself out of poverty.

Not everyone is you. Not everyone has had or will have the same experience as you.

a reply to: ~Lucidity

Ah, but see I pay for each of those items.
Gas taxes, road taxes, and property taxes pay for roads. IN FACT, let's delve a bit deeper. Dwight D Eisenhower signed the Federal Aid Highway Act in 1956. That Act included establishment of a national per gallon gasoline excise tax and the formation of the Federal Highway Trust Fund. In other words, if you dove the roads, you paid for the roads... fairly, across the board, based purely on how much you drive and how much gas you used.

This fund was solvent and strong until several major problems began to rear their head under the Clinton presidency. The fund started being used as an overall transportation fund, which it was not intended to be. Crap like pedestrian facilities, bicycle facilities, light rail, and public bus appropriations started being paid for out of the trust. Further strain was placed on it when America started passing laws demanding more fuel efficient vehicles which tended to catch on more in the areas where traffic volume and cumulative miles driven were the greatest than they did out in the more rural areas. Where you previously had 1,000,000 people using 10 gallons a day and generating nearly $2 Million in fund taxes a day, you now have 1,000,000 people using 4 gallons a day and generating $800,000 in fund revenue. The cost of infrastructure went up, the demand for new facilities skyrocketed, but the pool of dedicated funds shrank precipitously. Then, in 2008, Congress loosened up the regulations over spending the money allocated to each state from the fund. States began using the money to pay off state debt totally unrelated to highways or even transportation. The Highway Trust Fund is an OUTSTANDING example of what happens when you start chiseling away at a financially stable entity to redistribute the money elsewhere while also passing regulations and requirements that are disadvantageous to the fund's growth and income.

Education: I Do pay for my children's education. They attend a charter school, which receives a fraction of the state funding the neighborhood schools do and I have to pony up quite a bit of $$$ each year in the form of a modified tuition and multiple fund drives through the year. I rent my home, but my rent is very much contingent on property taxes, which fund the school district. I receive far less return on that investment than folks who have their kids in the neighborhood schools, but my kids are getting a better education than the ones at those crumbling, failing halls of hell called public schools are receiving, so I'm OK with that.

Financial: LMAO! Yeah, like I believe the FDIC has the capacity to prevent another S&L crisis if one hits! :rolleyes: I keep enough in the bank to pay my bills, all else is held in liquidity.

USPS: Hmm... can't think of the last time I mailed *anything* using the Postal Service. I prefer the accountability and service of FedEx and UPS, myself. That includes for letters. The mail delivered to my house each day from USPS I'd actually appreciate elimination of. Bills, advertisements, and crapola. No thanks!

Social Security: Not sure how old you are, but my generation started discussing the inevitability that Social Security will be insolvent and dead before we start to retire clear back in high school. I'd love to see them stop taking that from my paycheck every 2 weeks, or at least have the decency to just list it as a straight up tax and not double tax me on that money (SS & Medicare "tax" is taken after your income has already been valuated for income tax, so you're taxed on the tax itself). I view it as just another example of earnings taken from me which I'll never see again nor get any return or benefit from. Que sera sera, eh?

Fire Department and Police: Never had to call either in my life, but I've been paying into them for 20+ years, so I'm owed a couple of calls before we call that one even.

To my knowledge, Health Insurance is the first example of it's kind in terms of an insurance everyone is mandated to either purchase or have purchased for them by the higher rates charged to a group of strangers. Flood, fire, car, accident, etc. insurances are all either optional or dependent on particular behavior and choices which are entirely voluntary.

Oh, and I don't plow snow nor do I shovel it or snowblow it. I drive my SUV over the top of it and through it. By the end of a normal winter my driveway has about 14 inches of compressed snow that has turned to ice. Seems like such a silly thing to waste money and time on. I WISH the city and state would stop plowing the roads in the winter. Though I pay for that, too, our of property taxes, they plow it down to glare ice and it's a much bigger pain in the ass than simply leaving the snow there for those of us with the right vehicles to deal with.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Not everyone is as fantastic as you. Some people need a little extra help. Maybe they aren't as smart as you. Maybe they have been told all their life that they are worthless, stupid and won't amount to anything, and they ended up believing it. Maybe as a teen girl, they had little self-worth, so they slept with some guys and got pregnant a few times. Now those men might have disappeared and the teen grows up with a family of her own to take care of, no support, trying to feed 3 or 4 kids, and no clue how to get herself out of poverty.

Not everyone is you. Not everyone has had or will have the same experience as you.

Exactly, so why do I have to pay for their mistakes?

originally posted by: introvert
They will just say that those things you listed are "different". But in reality it's not. They may complain about what you and I believe in, but they end up enjoying it when it's implemented.

Even if I hadn't just responded to each item uniquely above, there's one massive unifying feature which makes everything Lucidity listed different from welfare and socialist programs: EVERYBODY pays into what she listed at an equal rate. Gas taxes are $0.184 cents per gallon whether you're Donald Trump or Don the dude who lives out of his car. Property taxes are taken as a set percentage of the assessed value of your property. Social Security is taken at the same rate per dollar from the check of a guy making $20K per year as it is from the check of a guy making $100K (up to the threshold which exists because SS is supposed to be a "you get what you put in" program, NOT the bastard it has become).

Until you get to income taxes... then it all falls to SNIP. We have 47% of America paying negative net income taxes, meaning the government pays them more than they're paying into the communal system you so love and hold dear. And, and, and get this (hope you're sitting down) IT'S STILL NOT ENOUGH FOR THAT 47% AND THEY'RE CALLING FOR MORE!!! Isn't that a fricken laugh riot that would hairlip the Pope!