Defeat The Right In Three Minutes

a reply to: introvert

I find it useful to point out when conservatives are exhibiting behavior that typifies the memes they're always spewing. For instance, conservatives have their own version of extreme political correctness. They also talk a good game of personal responsibility as long as they're talking about social welfare programs that benefit the poor; beyond that, personal responsibility goes out the window. Try holding a conservative politician to task for some crap they've said and prepare for the deluge of excuses in the form of, "but but (insert non-conservative here) said, 'blah blah!'"

Right-wing rhetoric isn't hard to understand:

"Big government" and "socialism" only apply to things right-wing propagandists are against (like SNAP, the EPA or the FDA) but never to military spending and rarely to subsidization of industries that are big supporters of the GOP. Basically anything that benefits the poor is "stealing" and any regulation of or removal of subsidization from industries that predominately support the GOP is corrupting the "free market" and "killing jobs" (despite the fact that both parties are in fact neoliberal and therefore support regulated markets, central planning, etc). Any social justice movement can be summed up as either "racist" or causing Christians to "violate their consciences."

Collectively, anything that the GOP doesn't support falls under the category of "destroying America."

Nobody ever wants to hear that they have been easily brainwashed. Not the right or the left. Is it even productive to debate this way. Can anyone even be told that they are brainwashed? If they already drank the propaganda kool-aid, will they not just dismiss what you are saying and/or just ignore you completely. Mental gymnastics at the gold medal level. Quickly fabricating an excuse as to why you are wrong and they are right, of why they are the only one in the room not brainwashed. Turning everything around back at you. Which ends in an endless round of,

"Your brainwashed"
"no your brainwashed"
"uh uh, your brainwashed"
"No no, its you that is brainwashed"

The above sums up almost every political left-right fight on ATS.

I think it is better to come at it from the angle, of everything being propaganda. Every singe thing we read, watch, or listen to. No matter where it is from. It will most likely confirm some bias. You, me, them, our leaders, their leaders, are all propagandists. We are all brainwashed to some degree. To be a savvy citizen of this world, is to know and realize this. Only when you realize this. Can you begin to take control of it.

Or maybe I don't know what I am talking about, and this is just propaganda, which it is.

I'm pretty socially liberal. I'm not really seeing it here with this one though. Nope, not seeing it. Using "cheap labor conservative" isn't anything new to me. It wasn't until fairly recently (last few decades) that conservatives loved immigrants for their cheap labor. Reagan's policies on immigration alone would preclude him from getting a GOP nomination today. Reagan, who most Republicans hold up as a shining example of their own -- is entirely un-electable in today's Republican party. That is how far right the party has shifted.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: TechniXcality

No I'm not going to break down the points I reject the premise

Do you deny that the Right uses the tactics and language described? Do you deny that while they claim to support certain things, like smaller government, their actions would indicate otherwise?

Are you talking about the voters and those of us commenting, or are you talking about the GOP collective of asshats in DC with this statement? I want next to no government, frankly, and I'm a right-wing libertarian. From my position, the Federal Government should be rarely seen nor heard within the average American's daily routine. Their purpose, as clearly stated in the Constitution, should be majority directed outward FROM the USA, not inward AT the USA. The only time their name should be on Americans' tongues is when they screw something up, rather than this "integral part of our daily lives" horsecrap. So yeah... I'm failing to personally find these contradictions you speak of.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: introvert

A good hypocrisy to point out to Conservatives who complain that America isn't as great as it used to be is to show them that when America was "great" as they claim, it was because of Liberal and Socialist policies that created and expanded the Middle class to its greatest size ever. Then it wasn't until conservatives dismantled some of these protections that America slipped to the point its at now.

I don't think it would matter. So far it appears that most of those that have responded are too lazy to even take the time to read the source and actually debate the errors they find. They just call me brainwashed or resort to the ever-useful "the left does it too" nonsense.

So you think they would actually take the time to research what made America great at it's best?

I doubt it.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I dislike the entire group of politicians. They become senators, and Representatives, somehow shortly after, become millionaires, then seem to ignore the constituents and vote however their contributors tell them to. It's almost is if there is some corruption in politics........or not.

If you really want to take a good hard look at the difference, look at the last 15 years. It's a tie game, and going into overtime. The score....0 to 0. But what a fantastic display of sportsmanship.

Yea, there's a difference.

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: introvert

A good hypocrisy to point out to Conservatives who complain that America isn't as great as it used to be is to show them that when America was "great" as they claim, it was because of Liberal and Socialist policies that created and expanded the Middle class to its greatest size ever. Then it wasn't until conservatives dismantled some of these protections that America slipped to the point its at now.

I don't think it would matter. So far it appears that most of those that have responded are too lazy to even take the time to read the source and actually debate the errors they find. They just call me brainwashed or resort to the ever-useful "the left does it too" nonsense.

So you think they would actually take the time to research what made America great at it's best?

I doubt it.

You were the one that stated it was about "extreme" right wing when neither you nor the source stated that at all. Did you read your source? I did.

Musing about labels…

I remember some from a different era, they meant the same thing…

Goddamn, long hair, barefoot, hippie protester… Get a Job!

Liberal, pinko, commie bastard!

Haha, wearing with pride!

a reply to: Vasa Croe

You COULD point that out, but the original conversation was about a conservative going on about return America to what it once was. If the conservative rebutted my point with something along the lines of what you just said, he'd be trying to have his cake and eat it too. You can't have conservative taxation policies and have the super strong middle class that we had at the same time. You can only have one or the other, as has been shown by the last 30-35 years of federal politics.

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
a reply to: Terminal1
You're missing his point. But don't feel bad, it's buried under a few feet of intellectual pretense.

The greedy Americans who have things need to be defeated, so the socialists can take their stuff and give it to the greedy Americans who don't have as many things.

I don't really accept that as truth. Just about everyone I know simply want to live comfortable with a decent job and have a future that isn't so uncertain. They don't want to take anything from anyone and do not mind putting shoulder to wheel to get that security. These people also fall all along the political spectrum.

Maybe I just know a lot of good people...

originally posted by: sirlancelot
a reply to: introvert



Makes you wonder why the conservative's in the GOP are winning! Sadly the conservatives help to maintain majority in the house, help to get majority in the Senate, and the leadership in both sides of congress doesn't do what they say they will do. We need to get rid of progressives and Rhino's in the White House, Senate, and House and then we can get get somewhere.

This sounds like the kind of thinking which was pointed out in the OP.

It would seem to be one or two of the points mentioned does fit quite well into the main right-wing agenda.
The elimination of social security, and the whole new deal, would but those who are most dependant on assistance back into the same conitions as were present in the early 1900's.
The elimination of any wage and work condition regulations would do the same for every working person in the country and allow employers to treat their workers with the same distain as they did then.
Of course, even though wages would go down to the lowest possible levels and the needy would not have any income what so ever; prices for food and shelter would likely rise to new highs and those living accomidations, which were available, would not be good.
The only real problem most of the right-wingers I know would have is; you will be around to bury all those who starve to death because of these conitions.

I for one am not looking forward to a right-wing take over of the government.
Their attitude and agenda are just not acceptable to me.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

My apologies. I am trying to create a distinction between true conservatives on the right, and the extreme. True conservatives a very rare and do not engage in the same tactics described.

Now are you going to address specifics or are we going to linger on this irrelevant non-issue?

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: introvert

A good hypocrisy to point out to Conservatives who complain that America isn't as great as it used to be is to show them that when America was "great" as they claim, it was because of Liberal and Socialist policies that created and expanded the Middle class to its greatest size ever. Then it wasn't until conservatives dismantled some of these protections that America slipped to the point its at now.

I don't think it would matter. So far it appears that most of those that have responded are too lazy to even take the time to read the source and actually debate the errors they find. They just call me brainwashed or resort to the ever-useful "the left does it too" nonsense.

To be honest, I was about to type what you just said as a response to you. Because I knew that was EXACTLY what was going to happen. The problem with your approach is that you are trying to use logic and reason to attack an illogical argument that has been founded on faulty premises. You can't win; they will just resort to fallacies and ignorance to counter anything you say.

So you think they would actually take the time to research what made America great at it's best?

I doubt it.

Research? They don't research their own opinions. The point of the exercise I said was to watch them squirm under their rhetoric. It's not going to stop them or magically turn them into a liberal. Just like your OP was destined for failure the moment you typed the first word.

Breaking a confirmation bias requires willing participation from the party that you are trying to get to break it. If you don't have their cooperation, you might as well be banging your head against a wall repeatedly. This is a lesson that I've learned intimately from my 3 years on this website.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Vasa Croe

You COULD point that out, but the original conversation was about a conservative going on about return America to what it once was. If the conservative rebutted my point with something along the lines of what you just said, he'd be trying to have his cake and eat it too. You can't have conservative taxation policies and have the super strong middle class that we had at the same time. You can only have one or the other, as has been shown by the last 30-35 years of federal politics.

Correct...it was all originally based on liberal policies in which more taxation was not promoted. It was the liberal side that initially proposed heavier taxation for these programs. This was what a large portion of the divide initially started over. People don't like to give away close to half of what they earn to programs they may not fully believe in because these programs have yet to work.

It is obvious this is still the case with the current candidates pushing for more taxation on the working class than ever.

Either way, I don't like either side of the debate....both suck and neither will make anything better.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe
Either way, I don't like either side of the debate....both suck and neither will make anything better.

This is true, but there IS such a thing as a happy middle. It just kind of requires that neither parties are bat# insane, which unfortunately I think is currently the case for the Republican party. Hell they've practically disowned any self-described Republican that has some moderate or liberal tendencies with the term RINO. So to be a Republican in this day and age, one must be ultra-conservative, otherwise they might as well just say they are a Democrat.

With the current political climate, we are destined for more and more liberal polices as conservatives become more and more irrelevant. I'm not particularly excited about it because the dissenting conservative voice is as trust worthy as that guy on the corner yelling the "end is near!".

ETS: One more thing about those super high tax rates. There were loopholes in place that gave tax breaks for reinvesting profits back into the company they came from. This resulted in more profits going to employee benefits. This in return resulted in less taxes paid by the rich investors/owner. It was a win-win situation for both parties. That is why the wealth gap wasn't so obscene at the time.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Just like your OP was destined for failure the moment you typed the first word.

Ya, I know.

Compelled to still "fight the good fight" regardless.

Oh, well.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Vasa Croe

My apologies. I am trying to create a distinction between true conservatives on the right, and the extreme. True conservatives a very rare and do not engage in the same tactics described.

Now are you going to address specifics or are we going to linger on this irrelevant non-issue?

I did address the specifics in my earlier posts. Just like religion, politics are an impossible thing to be changed unless you have a direct relation/influence to the policies that are being pushed.

I had a mentor one time that told me he would never hire a sales person over the age of 29 because you can't change their way of doing anything. I have found that he is, for the most part, correct. I feel the same about politics and religion, though I feel it starts at a much younger age. A bit like indoctrination. It isn't until people get out into the real world and have to work for their own well being that they really are able to understand one side or the other. I vote for those that tax me less....doesn't matter what side they are on. That is my main concern with any politician these days really. Outside of that, I worry about my family and friends....sort of an "out of sight out of mind" mentality I guess. While many may think it crass and uncaring, I have yet to see anyone from the "handout" side do anything to help those handing it out.

a reply to: introvert

Who is the "right"? who in this thread is the bogey man? Point to him, put an address on him,so we know who to use these tactics against;we can defeat him in three minutes! The premise is ridiculous this thread is rediculous, and you are falling for the same cookie cutter division nonsense that eliminates free thought,and encourages partisan politics. Now I don't know about you, but these partisan lines haven't solved # and this thread has been going on longer than three minutes. Either your OP cannot do what it proports or the premise is false and should be rejected.

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: introvert
Now I don't know about you, but these partisan lines haven't solved # and this thread has been going on longer than three minutes. Either your OP cannot do what it proports or the premise is false and should be rejected.

Ha!

2nd.

a reply to: introvert

I don't have time to read any of this, but I still have a valid question that I seriously doubt is answered in "How to Defeat...."

How is killing the unborn by mere choice or whim deemed OK by the left? Give me a good enough response, and I just may switch sides.

...And maybe many of you progressives would switch sides if you seriously considered how abortion is diametrically opposed to the basic principles of the new left. But I guess you would need to think about that and evidently few of you do.