New Mexico Court Forced a Mother To Take Religious Classes Or Face Losing Her Kids

a reply to: Annee

Would you be cool with going to a court mandated 12 step program? Even though they say God, and even lead you out with the Our Father Prayer? Or would you get the judge to give you accommodations?

a reply to: Annee

I wish Salzman had done that. This counselor has had the same kind of complaints before. But she insisted her sessions weren't religious in any way. I wonder what she'll say now that she's on video... How she can reconcile her behavior with her claims is beyond me. Now that this story is out, she'll probably have to stop using the library.

originally posted by: Annee
Why would I introduce atheism?

Exactly. I'm there for co-parent counseling, not theological debate! Besides, I don't try to convince people to share my personal beliefs... They're my PERSONAL beliefs. I wouldn't waste my time arguing the lady's beliefs.

a reply to: harvestdog

The 12 step program mentions "God", but I know that they are VERY clear that each person has their own definition of a higher power and they don't make you do essays on it... God is NOT the central idea of AA. Staying off alcohol is.

a reply to: C21H30O2I

This is over the line. Period. I am for religious freedom but this is way over the line.

What if it was a Muslim woman who started praying to Allah at the start of this counseling session?

Horrible.

We just need to be able to see both sides of this Religious freedom issue.

originally posted by: harvestdog
a reply to: Annee

Would you be cool with going to a court mandated 12 step program? Even though they say God, and even lead you out with the Our Father Prayer? Or would you get the judge to give you accommodations?

They don't say God -- exactly.

They say higher power, which could be riding a motorcycle on the open highway.

Its a personal choice.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

The 12 step program mentions "God", but I know that they are VERY clear that each person has their own definition of a higher power

Dictionary
Religion:

the belief in a god or in a group of gods

Mentioning God as they do in the 12 steps of AA, is obvious religion. Why should person who believes in NO GOD be forced to attend that tripe? Religion encompasses all aspects of believing in a higher power and calling on its help or guiding hand. Some people believe there is no higher power, how is it right for AA to pray them out, at court order?

and they don't make you do essays on it

I know plenty of court ordered DUI programs around here that have Christian counselors. These counselors can make you participate in group sessions or they can kick you out. I know that a lot of them bring religion and 12 step programming into the class. Is that fair? Hell even The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in S.F. ruled against its constitutionality

God is NOT the central idea of AA. Staying off alcohol is.

Just so we are clear, this cases central idea is about making this lady a good parent. AA is about staying off alcohol. The means are exactly the same though. Using religion to get a desired outcome. Half of the steps in a 12 step program go back directly to turning your life over to your God. That is Religion.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Reallyfolks

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Reallyfolks
I would play the game to keep my kids and call to get counselor changed.

She called TWICE to report this counselor and get it changed, but the court ignored her, so she stopped going.

Does it sucks, yes. Many things in life do.

Absolutely. And to be truthful, I would probably just go and keep my mouth shut. I would want to have the whole thing over with as quickly and painlessly as possible. Because life sometimes sucks. But I understand her actions.

I've had a similar situation. For the life of me I can't remember what it was, but do remember what happened.

In real life, I'm mostly like the water that flows peacefully around the rocks. But, piss me off and I'm a Scorpio backed into a corner.

The counselor kept trying to introduce something into the discussion that was not relevant. I took charge and made it extremely clear that we would continue on without it.

So I do know I would inform this counselor God would not be a part of our discussion. And I would be direct and adament if she tried.

It's my counseling session. Not hers.

I guess if I wanted to keep my kids, was forced to play the game, and was atheist. I would have spent the 10 sessions engaging in debate trying to convert her to atheist I would have had as much fun as possible with it. But that's me. If I have to play a game, I'll follow the rules to keep my kids but play on my terms. Just me though.

Why would I introduce atheism?

It's as relevant as God.

I'm very good at "playing the game", I'm also vey good at making it clear what will/will not happen.

It's not relevant and neither is your point. It doesn't reflect the reality of the situation the lady was in. She was ordered to 10 sessions. She didn't like the counselor and use of religion. She took steps to get it resolved with no results.

Things in life suck, they are not always right, not always just. How things should be and the reality don't always mesh when faced with them you have to then weigh priorities. In this case keeping my kids would be top. Understanding the reality after failing to get it changed then you play the game, or make a stand and deal with consequences, in this case lose kids. If you chose to play the game how do you want to do it? Many forms of protest. Combine them

It's no different than the ass at works who is rude and keeps getting promoted. Not fair, just, or right and no one can believe they still have a job. Reality is they do. Some people refuse to to play the game and send an email saying f off and get in trouble themselves. I prefer to send an email saying you're stupid and f off, but I followed the rules while playing the game on my terms and will do so until he is gone and how things should be match the reality. That's not just this situation, it's life.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

Dude, I'm near 70. Raised 2 kids, foster child, divorced. 2 daughters, grandkids. Helped raise grandson who's dad chose drugs over him -- never paid a dime in child support. Granddaughter who's dad was abusive, CPS called in.

Yada yada --- and that's only what fits in 3 sentences.

How much experience do you think I need to be able to understand?

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Reallyfolks

Dude, I'm near 70. Raised 2 kids, foster child, divorced. 2 daughters, grandkids. Helped raise grandson who's dad chose drugs over him -- never paid a dime in child support. Granddaughter who's dad was abusive, CPS called in.

Yada yada --- and that's only what fits in 3 sentences.

How much experience do you think I need?

Obviously if you haven't come to terms that what's right, just, relevant or how things should be don't always match reality then 70 isn't enough.

Pretty simple don't play the game and accept the consequences, play the game and if you want to still protest until how things should be matches reality then play the games in life on your terms while following the rules.

At this rate you may need another 70.

originally posted by: Reallyfolks

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Reallyfolks

Dude, I'm near 70. Raised 2 kids, foster child, divorced. 2 daughters, grandkids. Helped raise grandson who's dad chose drugs over him -- never paid a dime in child support. Granddaughter who's dad was abusive, CPS called in.

Yada yada --- and that's only what fits in 3 sentences.

How much experience do you think I need?

Obviously if you haven't come to terms that what's right, just, relevant or how things should be don't always match reality then 70 isn't enough.

Pretty simple don't play the game and accept the consequences, play the game and if you want to still protest until how things should be matches reality then play the games in life on your terms while following the rules.

At this rate you may need another 70.

You mean I don't agree with your perception. You're right, I dont.

Actually, I rarely agree with anything you say on any subject.

BTW -- what is your experience that makes you so knowledgeable on this subject?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Reallyfolks

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Reallyfolks

Dude, I'm near 70. Raised 2 kids, foster child, divorced. 2 daughters, grandkids. Helped raise grandson who's dad chose drugs over him -- never paid a dime in child support. Granddaughter who's dad was abusive, CPS called in.

Yada yada --- and that's only what fits in 3 sentences.

How much experience do you think I need?

Obviously if you haven't come to terms that what's right, just, relevant or how things should be don't always match reality then 70 isn't enough.

Pretty simple don't play the game and accept the consequences, play the game and if you want to still protest until how things should be matches reality then play the games in life on your terms while following the rules.

At this rate you may need another 70.

You mean I don't agree with your perception. You're right, I dont.

Actually, I rarely agree with anything you say on any subject.

You don't have to, reality does especially in this situation. At that point doesn't matter if you agree, because it's how it is.

Taking the reality of the situation into account ( doesn't matter if you agree, it is how it is) I pointed out keeping my kids would have taken priority. Also pointed out there are many forms of protest and you can follow the rules while protesting until what is right is the reality.

Quite honestly your opinion has never nor will it ever trump reality, so when you accept that, the reaction is everything. You may not like it, but it is in fact the situation and your opinion won't trump it.

Not trying to be mean, it is what it is.

originally posted by: Reallyfolks

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Reallyfolks

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Reallyfolks

Dude, I'm near 70. Raised 2 kids, foster child, divorced. 2 daughters, grandkids. Helped raise grandson who's dad chose drugs over him -- never paid a dime in child support. Granddaughter who's dad was abusive, CPS called in.

Yada yada --- and that's only what fits in 3 sentences.

How much experience do you think I need?

Obviously if you haven't come to terms that what's right, just, relevant or how things should be don't always match reality then 70 isn't enough.

Pretty simple don't play the game and accept the consequences, play the game and if you want to still protest until how things should be matches reality then play the games in life on your terms while following the rules.

At this rate you may need another 70.

You mean I don't agree with your perception. You're right, I dont.

Actually, I rarely agree with anything you say on any subject.

You don't have to, reality does especially in this situation. At that point doesn't matter if you agree, because it's how it is.

Taking the reality of the situation into ( doesn't matter if you agree it is how it is) I pointed out keeping my kids would have taken priority. Also pointed out there are many forms of protest and you can follow the rules while protesting until what is right is the reality.

Quite honestly your opinion has never nor will it ever trump reality, so when you accept that the reaction is everything. You may not like it, but it is in fact the situation and your opinion won't trump it.

Not trying to be mean, it is what it is.

What is your experience?

What is it that gives you credibility on this subject?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Reallyfolks

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Reallyfolks

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Reallyfolks

Dude, I'm near 70. Raised 2 kids, foster child, divorced. 2 daughters, grandkids. Helped raise grandson who's dad chose drugs over him -- never paid a dime in child support. Granddaughter who's dad was abusive, CPS called in.

Yada yada --- and that's only what fits in 3 sentences.

How much experience do you think I need?

Obviously if you haven't come to terms that what's right, just, relevant or how things should be don't always match reality then 70 isn't enough.

Pretty simple don't play the game and accept the consequences, play the game and if you want to still protest until how things should be matches reality then play the games in life on your terms while following the rules.

At this rate you may need another 70.

You mean I don't agree with your perception. You're right, I dont.

Actually, I rarely agree with anything you say on any subject.

You don't have to, reality does especially in this situation. At that point doesn't matter if you agree, because it's how it is.

Taking the reality of the situation into ( doesn't matter if you agree it is how it is) I pointed out keeping my kids would have taken priority. Also pointed out there are many forms of protest and you can follow the rules while protesting until what is right is the reality.

Quite honestly your opinion has never nor will it ever trump reality, so when you accept that the reaction is everything. You may not like it, but it is in fact the situation and your opinion won't trump it.

Not trying to be mean, it is what it is.

What is your experience?

What is it that gives you credibility on this subject?

42 years, going from a complete screw up trouble maker to a very successful career, many bad times in the process , crap jobs, sometimes multiple, working my way through college, taking care of a family, two great kids, stop in the military.

Along the way making some bad choices, suffering the consequences of those choices, accepting responsibility for those choices. Real turning point about 23 when I realized I could complain about crap or I could put in some work, learn the game of life, learn to react better when things that suck arise and become as successful as possible.

Not rich, not bragging, had to grow up, I had to learn to accept reality and the bad and good that comes with it. Definately not the all glitz and glamour life, not bad for an ex scumbag with a pretty lengthy sealed juvenile record in upstate NY.

originally posted by: Reallyfolks

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Reallyfolks

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Reallyfolks

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Reallyfolks

Dude, I'm near 70. Raised 2 kids, foster child, divorced. 2 daughters, grandkids. Helped raise grandson who's dad chose drugs over him -- never paid a dime in child support. Granddaughter who's dad was abusive, CPS called in.

Yada yada --- and that's only what fits in 3 sentences.

How much experience do you think I need?

Obviously if you haven't come to terms that what's right, just, relevant or how things should be don't always match reality then 70 isn't enough.

Pretty simple don't play the game and accept the consequences, play the game and if you want to still protest until how things should be matches reality then play the games in life on your terms while following the rules.

At this rate you may need another 70.

You mean I don't agree with your perception. You're right, I dont.

Actually, I rarely agree with anything you say on any subject.

You don't have to, reality does especially in this situation. At that point doesn't matter if you agree, because it's how it is.

Taking the reality of the situation into ( doesn't matter if you agree it is how it is) I pointed out keeping my kids would have taken priority. Also pointed out there are many forms of protest and you can follow the rules while protesting until what is right is the reality.

Quite honestly your opinion has never nor will it ever trump reality, so when you accept that the reaction is everything. You may not like it, but it is in fact the situation and your opinion won't trump it.

Not trying to be mean, it is what it is.

What is your experience?

What is it that gives you credibility on this subject?

42 years, going from a complete screw up trouble maker to a very successful career, many bad times in the process , crap jobs, sometimes multiple, working my way through college, taking care of a family, two great kids, stop in the military.

Along the way making some bad choices, suffering the consequences of those choices, accepting responsibility for those choices. Real turning point about 23 when I realized I could complain about crap or I could put in some work, learn the game of life, learn to react better when things that suck arise and become as successful as possible.

Not rich, not bragging, had to grow up, I had to learn to accept reality and the bad and good that comes with it. Definately not the all glitz and glamour life, not bad for an ex scumbag with a pretty lengthy sealed juvenile record in upstate NY.

Glad you made it.

I tell my 15 year old granddaughter everytime she walks out the door: "DONT DO STUPID".

It's just not worth it.

Nope. What you do, is stand up to unjust laws. You do not let them steamroll you. Just because submission is your way of life does not mean others have to live by your standards.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Nope. What you do, is stand up to unjust laws. You do not let them steamroll you. Just because submission is your way of life does not mean others have to live by your standards.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

Sorry you can't comprehend. I specifically said you keep fighting until what should be matches reality. But you have to adjust and play the game of the reality until that time. If you want to jump in on the end of a thread you might serve yourself well to read all the post before making a comment like this to someone. It avoids you looking clueless if you make sad statements on things addressed. Not surprised.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
a reply to: harvestdog

The 12 step program mentions "God", but I know that they are VERY clear that each person has their own definition of a higher power and they don't make you do essays on it... God is NOT the central idea of AA. Staying off alcohol is.

God is very much the central theme in AA.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
a reply to: harvestdog

The 12 step program mentions "God", but I know that they are VERY clear that each person has their own definition of a higher power and they don't make you do essays on it... God is NOT the central idea of AA. Staying off alcohol is.

God is very much the central theme in AA.

It's higher power.

My brother is an alcoholic.

There are however different groups. You can pick the group that suits you best.

originally posted by: Reallyfolks

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Nope. What you do, is stand up to unjust laws. You do not let them steamroll you. Just because submission is your way of life does not mean others have to live by your standards.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

Sorry you can't comprehend. I specifically said you keep fighting until what should be matches reality. But you have to adjust and play the game of the reality until that time. If you want to jump in on the end of a thread you might serve yourself well to read all the post before making a comment like this to someone. It avoids you looking clueless if you make sad statements on things addressed. Not surprised.

BTW -- I would not do anything that would jeopardize the kids.

There is "going to the line", but not crossing it.

So far I've always gotten what I wanted.