Is Zionism more 'Christian' than 'Jewish'?

A poll of American Jews published by Pew Research this week had a headline finding that many will perhaps find surprising: "Jews' feelings for Israel are equaled or even exceeded by those of white evangelical Protestants."

Pew found that 82 percent of white evangelicals "believe God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people" compared to less than half of many of Jewish Americans who believe the same. In fact, the proportion of Jews who believe as much (40 percent) is actually lower than the general public in America.
Link to article

A lot of conspiracy theorists out there condemn Zionism and they try to paint it as the greatest menace to humanity. But, consider the article above for a moment. The same conspiracy theorists that condemn Zionism rarely condemn Christianity (in my experience at least). I've always thought the two things go hand in hand.

The main conspiracy theorist-type person that bothers me concerning this is Jeff Rense. I've been a fan of his for years and I agree with him on many issues. But, his attitudes toward Zionism and Christianity almost strike me as being kind of schizophrenic. Rense seems to totally support Christianity while railing against Zionism as being the most despicable thing in existence IMHO. To make matters worse, he's had guests on for years that propagate that same view and it's never made a bit of sense to me.

Can someone explain to me how people can be totally opposed to Zionism while completely supporting Christianity (and even being Christians)? I suppose it may come down to different interpretations of Christian beliefs but there's a big problem if one takes that view:

Are you claiming that the vast numbers of Christian Zionists aren't really Christians?

Or are you claiming that all Christian Zionists are confused and/or deceived? If you're going to claim that all Christian Zionists are confused and/or deceived then are they all heretics and/or apostates? It's quite a dicey issue. Don't look for people like Jeff Rense to ever discuss any of that because it could (gasp) cost them money.

a reply to: Profusion

"Zionism definition. The belief that Jews should have their own nation; Jewish nationalism. Zionism gained much support among Jews and others in the early twentieth century, and the hoped-for nation was established in the late 1940s in Palestine, as the state of Israel. Zionism is opposed by most Arabs."

"Zionism (Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת, IPA: [t͡sijo̞ˈnut], translit. Tziyonut, after Zion) is a nationalist and political movement of Jews and Jewish culture that supports the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the historic Land of Israel (also referred to as Palestine, Canaan or the Holy Land)."

I am a Zionist to the degree that I support Israelis in the reestablishment of their homeland. It is more than just religious belief that makes me support Israel. It is racial, cultural, political, strategic, etc.

I must temper this because I fully respect Iran and Islam culturally. I value them and I always hope for diplomatic initiatives and solutions to the modern problems of interstate relationships. Bloodshed is no way to a shared future.

a reply to: Profusion

Hmmm. I consider my self a critical thinker ,therefore i don't subscribe Jewish or christian ideology to be fully honest .

a reply to: Profusion

ZIONISM (wiki)
Zionism (Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת, IPA: [t͡sijo̞ˈnut], translit. Tziyonut, after Zion) is a nationalist and political movement of Jews and Jewish culture that supports the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the historic Land of Israel (also referred to as Palestine, Canaan or the Holy Land). Zionism emerged in the late 19th century in central and eastern Europe as a national revival movement, called Hovevei Tziyon, and soon after this most leaders of the movement associated the main goal with creating the desired state in Palestine, then an area controlled by the Ottoman Empire.

The primary goals of Zionism until 1948, were the re-establishment of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel ("Eretz Israel" in Hebrew), ingathering of the exiles, and liberation of Jews from antisemitic discrimination and persecution that occurred in their diaspora. Since the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism continues primarily to advocate on behalf of Israel and address threats to its continued existence and security.

A religious variety of Zionism supports Jews upholding their Jewish identity defined as adherence to religious Judaism, opposes the assimilation of Jews into other societies, and has advocated the return of Jews to Israel as a means for Jews to be a majority nation in their own state

Jews adhere to the Torah (the first 5 books of the old testament) and writings within the Talmud. Jews reject the notion that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God.
Christians revere the entire old and new testament (Hebrew Bible) however believe that Jesus is the Christ, and is the Son of God.

Some Christians see the reestablishment of Israel as prophetic through interpretation of certain biblical verses and therefore lean towards the concept of Zionism as verification of Gods handiwork - especially since 1948 when ISRAEL was made manifest for the first time in Earths history as a tract of land and not affiliated with a particular bloodline (Israel is the (partial) name of a bloke in the old Testament).

These same Christian-Zionists are more "excited" about this (apocalyptic) concept than Jews because it is interpreted that this manifestation of Israel in the modern era heralds the return of Jesus - as suggested in the last book of the Bible.

I always thought zionists were athiests?en.m.wikipedia.org...

This is going to be one of those crappy books that leaves you hanging at the end.
Is anybody working on a sequel?
The Bible part 2.

originally posted by: Kapusta
a reply to: Profusion

Hmmm. I consider my self a critical thinker ,therefore i condem both ideology to be fully honest .

Not critical enough to realise that there are billions of people to whom it does matter. Not critical enough to realise that it matters a great deal to the U.S strategically.

Open your eyes and realise that we are in a real world where real power has to be balanced, where there are finite resources and an ever continuing struggle to meet human needs. That is why politics matter. It is a civilized response.

With 7 billion people on our planet we have to have ideas of order and policies. These people choose to belong to the religions they belong to and their political affiliations, expressed most healthily when democracy is allowed to function without political violence.

You say you are a critical thinker, but I would say you express some ignorance if this is all you think about the world around you. You are no more innocent than the next man or woman and must accept your responsibility when you use the resources and live the Western life, taking advantage of the power your state wields in the world. At least care about it, one way or the other.

Certainly more occultist than Jewish or Christian. Zionism in its politicized, militarized form is a tool of the Illuminati to control world affairs. It has nothing to do with the prophets' promises of restoring Israel. Most religious Jews are against it.

This link is the search results on youtube for "Orthodox Jews against Zionism" it has hundreds of results.
www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: Revolution9

originally posted by: Kapusta
a reply to: Profusion

Hmmm. I consider my self a critical thinker ,therefore i condem both ideology to be fully honest .

Not critical enough to realise that there are billions of people to whom it does matter. Not critical enough to realise that it matters a great deal to the U.S strategically.

Open your eyes and realise that we are in a real world where real power has to be balanced, where there are finite resources and an ever continuing struggle to meet human needs. That is why politics matter. It is a civilized response.

With 7 billion people on our planet we have to have ideas of order and policies. These people choose to belong to the religions they belong to and their political affiliations, expressed most healthily when democracy is allowed to function without political violence.

You say you are a critical thinker, but I would say you express some ignorance if this is all you think about the world around you. You are no more innocent than the next man or woman and must accept your responsibility when you use the resources and live the Western life, taking advantage of the power your state wields in the world. At least care about it, one way or the other.

Who says i have to subscribe to anything you just posted ?

I chose not to be apart of any of that . My focus is on my family.

I chose to be ME , If i felt that I could offer something that would make change I would offer it !

Simply put , You can't change a world that is unwilling to change .

Actually, I'll simplify this even more.

1. Not all Christians believe the same things. There are 30,000+ different denominations of Christianity worldwide.

2. Being "Jewish" simply means "being a member of the Tribe of Judah". A person can be Jewish & also be an atheist (for example, nearly all of the founders of communism & its early leaders were Jewish).

3. Most Jewish people today are non-religious. In fact, the vast majority of modern Jews follow Reform Judaism. Reform Jews don't believe they are bound by any specific religious texts. Think about that for a second. As an example, look at Andrew Zimmern, the host of "Bizarre Foods". Most of the foods he eats on that show are not Kosher.

4. The modern country of Israel is a secular/non-religious nation. It is literally meant to be a homeland for the Tribe of Judah, not a homeland for ancient Judaism. The most religious Jews in Israel are the Haredi/"Ultra Orthodox Jews", and they are pariahs in Israel. In fact, most surveys of Israeli Jews list them as one of the biggest threats to Israel (to be fair, they're pretty misogynist & get special exemptions from the government, like not having to do military service, though that may have changed under Netanyahu).

5. Zionism is a new concept that was established in the late 1800s. From the early 600s AD (roughly 630AD) to the early 1900s, the Jewish majority ignored Jerusalem & the former lands of Judea. This is because their last attempt at a Jewish State failed miserably (the Jewish-Sassanid State of the early 620s AD). Jewish leaders had even declared Berlin the "New Jerusalem" in the 1800s.

6. Even when Zionism became a legitimate policy in the Jewish community, it was still only a fringe concept. The largest Jewish migrations from Europe in the early 1900s sent Jews all over the world. Most went to the United States, not Judea. This process sped up when fascism & Nazism grew in Europe during the 1920s & 1930s.

7. The Haredi Jews & several other Orthodox Jewish groups were against the return to Jerusalem/Judea because it went against their teachings of the Jewish Messiah. Only he was supposed to recreate Judea. However, it's also not a coincidence that the majority of the Jewish victims of the Holocaust were Haredi & other Orthodox Jews. But I won't go into that.

8. I could keep going, but I'll end it with this. Most American Christians aren't taught any of the stuff I just typed, much less the things I left out. In America, the word "Jew" is almost taboo. People are so afraid of being seen as "anti-Semitic" that they won't even do basic research on what it means to be a Jew, much less what their actual beliefs are (much less, what a Semite is).

This makes it easy for people to be manipulated into following whatever they're told about the issues.

EDIT: I want to add something else about the Haredi in modern Israel. They also have the highest birthrate & have become a significantly sized minority in Israel. They are extremely devoted to their beliefs, which is why some political parties eagerly do their bidding. To find out more (there's a lot more), I'd suggest you read Israeli newspapers & websites.

a reply to: Profusion
Christian Zionism is a modern development.
In old-fashioned Bibles, the promises in the Old Testament were made to the church, and the promised land is heaven.

a reply to: Profusion

I don't think Christianity and Zionism do go hand in hand for those who think about it or even use the term zionism today. Judiasm along with Islam is a political system for its people because its a way of life. Christianity and its ritualistic worship is not, its values are humanistic supposedly for all.

With Christianity today you can't separate political motivation used by those who dominate/rule religion because what makes it so potent to them is that it's the velvet glove used by them to control and maintain order and the status quo. A clever ruler not only controlled his generals he controlled his religious clerics who mingled and taught the people, his system gives him invaluable feedback about what the populace thinks.

Doesn't your question though concern more the orthodox within Judaism and Christianity? It should also be remembered that beliefs such as Judaism are a way of life and simply reinforces dogmatic values down through the generations. However today we are spread out in communities far more diverse so this influence is getting weaker and today simply because 'my mother cooked me chicken soup from a recipe that came down through the family' it doesn't mean she bought into or chose to follow the dogmatic values of her ancestors - as Pew's poll shows.

Its also for some religious people, whatever persuasion an inverted form of snobbery, because if one is seen within their community at regular worship, they are clearly a person of high moral calibre well above reproach. (Regardless of current exposure of ageless scandals).

Many Christians now only carry the New Testament so are certainly not encouraged to read the old testaments or any other religious documents. Their judgement and perspective is very selectively and quietly controlled by cherry picking what is acceptable policy and reinforced effectively by occupying their allotted religious time by focusing more on the calendar of church events, socials etc. One shouldn't forget the reinforcement of the Alpha course, which supports blind acceptance and demonstrated aptly the respectably pleasant, but domineering values it insisted its students followed. The religiosity also know that without encouraging support for Israel, they wouldn't have a focus for Jesus and Christianity.

I suspect people's perspective of zionism is not on the ordinary Jew living outside of Israel. Its on Israeli policy and how its portrayed outside of Israel with the persecution of the Palestinian people and the unfair and insidious way they are being robbed of their land. That's another argument though but its also factors as an influence for some Jewish people who clearly have their own views on it.

www.nkusa.org...


"They" (the ones calling the shots) are USING the Jewish people.. It is against The Torah to occupy lands that were originally taken away by The Creator. ONLY The Creator can restore those lands.

Is-Ra-el is our 51st State and has been getting $$$ funneled since it's inception.

So the answer is "Yes" The Jewish people there are the 'Lee Harvey'.

The ShotCallers have no 'Faith' that is why They only deal in terror and fear to harness the 'power' that comes with it.

Also please notice that religious™ folks of the Big3™ (Chris†ianity™, Islam™ and Judaism™) don't give 2 squirts what someone else's religion™ dictates, just as long as they get theirs. Ironically these 3 ALL stem from Abraham, so they really should have more in common than is different but they choose to seek out the differences. (division) This division drives the numbers. If they all got along then who would they fear?

namaste

a reply to: Profusion

The main difference I know between Christians and Jews is that Jews only use the old testament (time of Moses and that) while Christianity also uses the new testament (all that Jesus bit).

When I hear Zionist these days, 9/11 is the first thing that comes to mind. Considering how these guys play I fail to find any real association with the messages presented by Jesus Christ, as I have been educated.

a reply to: Profusion



Quanifying Christianity ,Judaism and Zionism is or can be a hard thing to get to the truth of the matter . Not all Christians are Christians and not all Jews are Jews . You can look at Zionism in a similar matter where one is Spiritual (from God) while the other is man made . God promised the Jews the land but if they obeyed Him . It was His land and just as they (the Jews) failed to keep His Sabbaths ,He sent them into captivity to Babylon .He also had the Assyrians rid the norther land of the ones that were worshiping other gods .

In today's way of thinking some think you can be borne a Christian or a Jew but the bible shows that you need the Torah to become a Jew and the Gospel to become a Christian .It's not about flesh and blood but is a spiritual journey for Christian ,Jews , and Gentiles . OMO

Zionism is a political movement nowadays.

The original promised land of the Jews, was to be made possible by the coming of the Jewish Messiah...

That's not Jesus (pbuh)...

So Israel as it stands it's solely political, emphasised by the fact that a large number of their political leaders were in fact Atheists, and nothing to do with the traditional promised land.




Ergo, why evangelicals find it prophetic is a conundrum for their own minds to decipher.

a reply to: Profusion

Personally I use the term Zionist to explain any group of people that think they have some biblical or even non biblical right to claim superiority over others. And those that make a religious claim to land.

Zion is the Kingdom of Heaven within. Not a piece of land. Until the Jews, Christians, Muslims and everyone else realizes the place of Zion is within we will continue to have Zionist.

Zionism will continue to exist by the actual definition and the more broad definition that myself and some others have applied to it, until mankind stops trying to force some prophecy to come true that they fail to understand.

One is entirely politically motivated to hoard resources amongst themselves,
the other is communally motivated to share resources with strangers.

One is live and let live, while the other is -die then, if you will not leave.

a reply to: Profusion

And yet no Christian worth calling such, would condone the things Israel have done, and justified by way of bleating about their borders. You know why? Because Christ would object to it. Looked at honestly, no one who has taken his message to heart could come to any other conclusion.

3379 (XXX). Elimination of all forms of racial discrimination

The General Assembly,

Recalling its resolution 1904 (XVIII) of 20 November 1963, proclaiming the United Nations Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, and in particular its affirmation that "any doctrine of racial differentiation or superiority is scientifically false, morally condemnable, socially unjust and dangerous" and its expression of alarm at "the manifestations of racial discrimination still in evidence in some areas in the world, some of which are imposed by certain Governments by means of legislative, administrative or other measures",

Recalling also that, in its resolution 3151 G (XXVIII) of 14 December 1973, the General Assembly condemned, inter alia, the unholy alliance between South African racism and zionism,

Taking note of the Declaration of Mexico on the Equality of Women and Their Contribution to Development and Peace 1975, proclaimed by the World Conference of the International Women's Year, held at Mexico City from 19 June to 2 July 1975, which promulgated the principle that "international co-operation and peace require the achievement of national liberation and independence, the elimination of colonialism and neo-colonialism, foreign occupation, zionism, apartheid and racial discrimination in all its forms, as well as the recognition of the dignity of peoples and their right to self-determination",

Taking note also of resolution 77 (XII) adopted by the Assembly of Heads of State and Government of the Organization of African Unity at its twelfth ordinary session, held at Kampala from 28 July to 1 August 1975, which considered "that the racist regime in occupied Palestine and the racist regime in Zimbabwe and South Africa have a common imperialist origin, forming a whole and having the same racist structure and being organically linked in their policy aimed at repression of the dignity and integrity of the human being",

Taking note also of the Political Declaration and Strategy to Strengthen International Peace and Security and to Intensify Solidarity and Mutual Assistance among Non-Aligned Countries, adopted at the Conference of Ministers for Foreign Affairs of Non-Aligned Countries held at Lima from 25 to 30 August 1975, which most severely condemned zionism as a threat to world peace and security and called upon all countries to oppose this racist and imperialist ideology,

Determines that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.

Source : UN General Assembly Resolution 3379

Galatians 6:11-18

Final Instructions and Benediction

See what big letters I make as I write to you with my own hand!

Those who want to make a good showing in external matters are trying to force you to be circumcised. They do so only to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. For those who are circumcised do not obey the law themselves, but they want you to be circumcised so that they can boast about your flesh. But may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that matters is a new creation! And all who will behave in accordance with this rule, peace and mercy be on them, and on the Israel of God.

From now on let no one cause me trouble, for I bear the marks of Jesus on my body.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers and sisters. Amen.