Along with the Creationist, Chimps have entered the Stone Age.

originally posted by: flyingfish
a reply to: chr0naut

So, you are saying that chimps have now reached a sophistication that we had when we were just like chimps?

And your one of the smart ones?

Apparently I have a rudimentary understanding of grammar.

a reply to: flyingfish

They are not walking upright. they are not separating themselves by class. They are not creating things to improve their life.

Stone use is old news and again not evolution but adaptation

Now if one starts to where banana leaves to hide his body parts, sews a basket to harvest and store fruit or develops a real hammer, then I am all in with you.

BTW, I am not your standard creationist. I bust heads with the young earthers with their view that the earth itself is only 6000 years old and no rain until the flood of Noah. I am usually labeled a heretic by them.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
Who gave us vocal cords ??

Did we manifest them suddenly because we telepathy was a more useless form of communication ?

In the words of a very wise sage of the internet...

Reading statements like this makes me wonder if you are actually serious, but I know you are.

WOW JUST WOW, what am I doing here amongst these damaged individuals.

The capacity for vocalizations is seen going back to at least some dinosaurs based on the fossil record. A large number of extant mammals and birds have a larynx and/or the ability to vocalize to some degree or another. In some instances it also correlates to the species auditory capabilities as well with many different animals capable of vocalizing at auditory levels above or below the range of human hearing for example. Even amongst any given species, the pitch, frequency and modulation varies. Homo Sapiens Sapiens for example have a wide range of tones and pitches with which we speak, sing etc... at. Some people can sing opera, some perform vocals in a death metal band where others have difficulty speaking period.

Let's look at our closest living relatives, the Chimpanzee. While we may not be able to understand what their vocalizations mean, they definitely have a language and can communicate amongst each other. Like their human counterparts, different groups from different geographical areas have different vocalization patterns that can only be understood by their own group and not by outsiders much like a native English speaker with no exposure to Mandarin will have a clue what the person speaking mandarin is saying but they still recognize that it is a language. When studying different groups of Chimpanzee, we see them giving distinct calls that are used as warnings for predators or to alert others to a food source as a couple of examples. The same calls or vocalizations are used by different members of the same group and can be recognized as language. Similar scenarios are witnessed throughout a wide variety of groups. Each group has their own languages, used consistently by the members of those groups and unrecognizable to outsiders.

If we take a look at one of our closest nonliving relatives, H. Neanderthalensis, they had a pretty similar ability to speak as we do today. The shape of their throats and position of their larynx was slightly different which gave them a slightly higher pitched speaking voice than we have but they very definitely had the ability to communicate with each other just as we do today. Vocalization/speech/communication... like any other adaptation, is a process that has been ongoing for millions of years. Vocal cords didn't just pop up randomly one day out of nowhere and consequently, neither did the many uses for vocalizations which are demonstrated amongst a wide variety or current and former inhabitants of Earth from across an equally wide array of genus, species, taxon etc...

a reply to: ChesterJohn

They are not walking upright. they are not separating themselves by class. They are not creating things to improve their life. Stone use is old news and again not evolution but adaptation Now if one starts to where banana leaves to hide his body parts, sews a basket to harvest and store fruit or develops a real hammer, then I am all in with you.

So, are you disagreeing that chimps have entered the stone age? What about creationist?

BTW, I am not your standard creationist. I bust heads with the young earthers with their view that the earth itself is only 6000 years old and no rain until the flood of Noah. I am usually labeled a heretic by them.

A heretic.. that sucks, I have been called heretic and worse! I'm not concerned the least bit. I know they will have to answer to Odin and the army of other Gods created over the centuries.
Not your standard creationist, so what flavor is your God?

a reply to: peter vlar

Thank God your here! Always great content and thought provoking posts.

I need to leave town on a job for a few days, I hand the torch over to peter vlar.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
Who gave us vocal cords ??

Did we manifest them suddenly because we telepathy was a more useless form of communication ?

LMAO. Nobody gave us vocal cords, they evolved like everything else. Sorry but your confirmation bias and doubt of evolution isn't enough to over ride the thousands of research papers that support it. I love how you guys always are so confident that you know more than scientists do, when you've never even done an ounce of research in your life. I can't describe it any other way but arrogant.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Stone use is old news and again not evolution but adaptation

It shows that their intellect is comparable to ours. I hate to tell you this but adaptation IS part of evolution. Sorry you don't like / understand this. You can't just refine a term to suit your agenda, sorry. That's called a straw man. Are you trying to make the argument that chimp intellect has not increased at all in the past 7 million years?

domestication! yes they have.
they have taken pups and kept them as gaurd dogs.
dont have the link. but its been on ATS.

It would be very significant if we recognized that other species are not fundamentally different from us and that cross-species linguistics and anthropology can be decoded.

I don't think we could arrive at planet of the apes, but I do think nature could learn to call the police on poachers if you made it simple and intuitive. Not to mention the benefits of learning the dolphin word for pirate treasure.

There intellect is no where comparable to mans.

When they start to design a hammer that is more ergonomic to make their labor a little less stressful on their bodies then I might call in the evolution tag. But until then it is just pure adaptation set for survival all animals have that.

a reply to: flyingfish

I had a stone age from the 1970's-90's.

I already gave an indication of the type of creationist I am. If you read this maybe you will know a bit more. go down to my second post on this thread and read www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: flyingfish

it wasn't till 1857 toilet paper was invented, and there are people who still use their left hand!

Are you baiting or showing your ignorance that Muslims don't use toilet paper? Who's the smart one now?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Splitting hairs. The intellect IS comparable to mans- you are in fact making a comparison between their tools and ours. You feel they haven't crossed some arbitrary threshold that makes them worthy of consideration in your world view so you want to use different words, but you aren't actually drawing a clear distinction between their behavior and yours, but rather are confirming that they are operating in the same dimension as you are, just not as well.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
There intellect is no where comparable to mans.

It could be argued that mans intellect is nowhere near a dolphins. Neither of those points have anything to do with the OP though. No matter how you want to view them though, Chimpanzee are in fact highly intelligent.

When they start to design a hammer that is more ergonomic to make their labor a little less stressful on their bodies then I might call in the evolution tag.

As their hands are somewhat different than the hands of a HSS, what is the criteria you are using to gauge ergonomics? The typical size of the rocks used are ones that fit neatly into the palm of their hand. Larger rocks are brought out for breaking larger or tougher objects. Rocks also are not the only tools utilized by Chimpanzee. There's the rather famous utilization of sticks to "fish" for termites, they create spears for both hunting prey and warfare, clubs are used by both genders. By males for engaging in hostilities and by females for self defense if a male is trying to mate with her and she wants no part of it and if a male threatens to kill her offspring.

It's also known that an older Chimpanzee is more likely to utilize tools than a young chimpanzee as much like their human counterparts, older chimpanzees are not as strong as young chimpanzees and they use tools to level the playing field so to speak. The more crafty with tools a particular chimpanzee is, the more likely they will be to have a portable tool kit that they bring with them. And yes, this has been documented in the wild, not captivity.

But until then it is just pure adaptation set for survival all animals have that.

If that were the case, there would be near universal usage, creation and implementation of tools. This however is not the case. It is particularly apparent in the use of spears and clubs because some groups use them a great deal, others occasionally and others not at all. The only point I will give you is that adaptation is indeed a universal element and that every organism that lives now, ever has or ever will live, from eukaryotes to Diplodocus, adapts. Adaptation is an important aspect of evolution and without it, no organism would ever change, there would be no need for key aspects like natural selection because there would be no new traits to select for if organisms were not adapting.

Back to Chimpanzee... their ability to take items from their environment and adapt them to make survival easier is a key component to their success as a species for the last several million years. It is a proven method that shows their ability to problem solve and that they are successfully able to plan ahead for future events. You can try to marginalize it all you like but this alone separates them from the vast majority of animals out there. Including a lot of humans.

a reply to: peter vlar

Let's look at our closest living relatives, the Chimpanzee. While we may not be able to understand what their vocalizations mean, they definitely have a language and can communicate amongst each other.

Hi Peter, great post, keep in mind the study cited in the OP goes beyond traditional vocaliztion by apes according to their species into a mimicry of human vocaliztion - unnatural breathing patterns and vocaliztions as seen in Bonobos and Koko bred and kept in close contact with humans, who were observed adopting human breathing patterns during their attempts at speech with their human handlers.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: flyingfish

Hate to break it to you, but lots of animals use tools.

Crows are particularly adept. The consensus is that they are considered by some to be more intelligent than chimps, in regard to tool use.

This, with a brain the size of a peanut and having to grip everything with their feet or beak, is quite remarkable.

Some birds can also mimic and seemingly respond to human language.

Perhaps the next "intelligent species" after man will be avian, not primate.

I completely agree.

originally posted by: Blackmarketeer
a reply to: peter vlar

Let's look at our closest living relatives, the Chimpanzee. While we may not be able to understand what their vocalizations mean, they definitely have a language and can communicate amongst each other.

Hi Peter, great post, keep in mind the study cited in the OP goes beyond traditional vocaliztion by apes according to their species into a mimicry of human vocaliztion - unnatural breathing patterns and vocaliztions as seen in Bonobos and Koko bred and kept in close contact with humans, who were observed adopting human breathing patterns during their attempts at speech with their human handlers.

Mimicking human breathing patterns and language shows intellect. They learned by watching us, much like a child learns from its parents.

So for the folks that say other great ape intelligence does not compare:

Koko the gorilla's estimated IQ is around 70-85, which is considered low for a human, but there are humans that have scored lower. It is pretty much the intellectual equivalent of a 9 year old child. So yeah, their intelligence levels are comparable.

People just have this ego problem. They have to consider themselves above and beyond all other life other life on planet. The second we learn that chimps and other great apes are not that far off, people get so defensive.

a reply to: Barcs

You're almost as bad by listing only chimps and other great apes. Does it have to be humanoid to be in contention?

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: Barcs

You're almost as bad by listing only chimps and other great apes. Does it have to be humanoid to be in contention?

How is acknowledging that great apes have comparable intelligence to humans an egotistical position?

Great apes are not humanoids and I never claimed they were the only ones comparable. Humans and great apes are in the same family, so they are the closest relatives. I used them as an example since they are generally the closest to human intellect. Obviously there are plenty of other comparable intelligent species, Dolphins for example. I'd even consider cats comparable, just not as close as a chimp. I was trying to say that humans are not above the rest of life on the planet, not that great apes are the kings and nobody else compares to the Hominidae family.

a reply to: flyingfish

Pfft stone age?...

Apparently dolphins are already living in the 60's.