Here is the proof you asked for - YOU can be healed.

a reply to: Klassified

I find the subject fascinating as well. I also like to specifically include the placebo effect alongside everything else.

I would really like to see actual exploration into the topic. Rather than using something like the placebo effect to discard something, I'd love to see methods that actively use the effect alongside 'normal' medicine. I think this would take quite a shift in approach though, so it is unlikely.

As for faith healing, there is a possible link to a placebo effect.. but sometimes there seems to be other variables in play.

I think the actual percentage of cases where something like this occurs is quite low though. Such spontaneous and anomalous healing may not be exclusive to religion either.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Though I also have to wonder where the ability came from. If it exists, did we evolve it? Do other species have this ability? Why is it even necessary for us to coax our immune system to work against something killing us? Shouldn't it already be working at maximum capacity to keep us alive on account that the disease is killing us?

This^^^. I have pondered this very thing. Is it an extension of our instinct for survival that is still evolving in us, and therefore, uncommon? I personally believe intuition has evolved(or is latent) in us from instinct. Some would say they are one and the same. I wouldn't argue that, but I think intuition is an extension of our instinct. However, it may be a looong time before any of that has a basis in real scientific theory. It also begs the question of whether or not we have a soul(spirit), and if we really are connected by a collective unconscious. Meh. Time will tell.

a reply to:DeathSlayer

To those with no faith in God......faith is not needed to be healed. Seek out those men and women who serve our Father in heaven and get them to lay their hands on you so that can be healed.

Whose faith is required for healing?
The one who heals?
The one who is sick?
Or both?
Let us check the scriptures.

Acts 3:16
And his name, by faith in his name, has made this man strong whom you see and know, and the faith that is through Jesus has given the man this perfect health in the presence of you all.

Acts 14:8-10
Now at Lystra there was a man sitting who could not use his feet. He was crippled from birth and had never walked. He listened to Paul speaking. And Paul, looking intently at him and seeing that he had faith to be made well, said in a loud voice, “Stand upright on your feet.” And he sprang up and began walk.

Mark 5:25-34
And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse. She had heard the reports about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment. For she said, “If I touch even his garments, I will be made well.” And immediately the flow of blood dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease.

Mark 10:52
And Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way.

Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

James 5:14-16
Is anyone among you sick?Let him (the believer) call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

Matthew 8:2
And behold, a leper came to him and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, if you will, you can make me clean.”

Matthew 8:5-8
When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed.

Matthew 9:28-29
When he entered the house, the blind men came to him, and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.” Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”

Mathew 15:28
Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.

The power lies in the faith of the one sick and in the one who heals the sick. If the one who is ill does not have faith they will not be healed by Jesus Christ. It was the sick person who was to call the elders to pray for him because the one who was sick had faith in the prayer.

How did Jesus treat those without faith?

And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.

The one who heals only has power according to the faith of the person being healed.

The following verse is not directed at you. This verse is directed at those who have mislead you.

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!

That book and many of the people who you are looking up to as faith healers are not teaching the sound doctrine found in scriptures.

I imagine one who's faith is pure can be healed even by a charlatan, because Jesus does not condemn the faithful because of the acts of charlatans.

a reply to: windword

Oh I'm sure it looked all sorts of credible. It was on Oprah after all. It's not like she's ever been scammed before or anything...

But hey, maybe they were all actually being honest with the account. It still could have been a coincidence. Always remember, statistically, IF it can happen, then as T = time goes to infinity or P = population size goes to infinity, the odds of it happening are 1. The kid could just as easily been the luckiest kid in the world.

Now Peter pop off was a proper healer

a reply to: Serdgiam

I find the subject fascinating as well. I also like to specifically include the placebo effect alongside everything else.

You might want to watch this. Well worth it, if you have an interest in the placebo effect...

I think the actual percentage of cases where something like this occurs is quite low though. Such spontaneous and anomalous healing may not be exclusive to religion either.

Agreed on the low percentages. And healing is definitely not exclusive to religion. In fact, it may be more common outside of religion.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: windword

Oh I'm sure it looked all sorts of credible. It was on Oprah after all. It's not like she's ever been scammed before or anything...

HAHA! Yep. This show was definitely during Oprah's Golden Years, when she could do no wrong. But, I do believe in self determinism and mind over matter, that it works at times. Don't they say something like 1/3 of people will never get better, 1/3 will get better all by themselves and 1/3 will get better with intervention....?

a reply to: Klassified

Like I said, you are free to believe what you want. I don't care. I just don't want to subscribe to an ideology just because it makes me feel good if it were to be true. From what I've seen, humans are notoriously BAD guessers, so the less evidence for a claim, the more likely I think it is wildly off from what is actually happening in reality.

a reply to: windword

Do they say that? I've never heard that before. Seems like pretty #ty odds to me... If it were true then 1/3rd of every person affected by a potentially fatal illness will die. I'd prefer my odds of death be a bit lower than playing rock, paper, scissors.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

I never said that it isn't possible, it's improbable...and videos don't prove anything.

Plus, I am absolutely open to the idea that the mind can do wonderful things--possibly even heal by thinking about it--but even if it can, it doesn't prove that a god is doing the healing, either. This entire thread is founded on the premise of "proof," and I'm not seeing it here at all.

Providing evidence of possibilities is different than providing evidence of proof; what you have given us is evidence of possibilities.

a reply to: Klassified

Thanks for the video, I have seen (and participated) in similar experiments but have not seen the one by Brown.

I think it perfectly illustrates the approach that needs to change, as it tends to be based in trickery rather than exploring how to use the effect *without* an actual placebo.

The people with fears, like illustrated in the video, point to an actual choice involved. Though, it is arguably at a level in the psyche that most are unaware. I think of it in terms of 'hacking' our own minds. The details on that might be considered off topic though.

The most interesting cases, to me, are the ones where a physical illness exists (like, say, a broken bone) and it is spontaneously healed. It suggests something happening that is different than simply making changes in our perspective.

I see that the placebo effect applies to the mind, and the spontaneous healing applies to the body. Probably an erroneous oversimplification, but the facets of this are difficult to pin down. It doesn't help that most exploration of this subject is confined to religion and pharmaceuticals!

Then again, if we could actually refine these (placebo effect and spontaneous healing) as a species, it would damage everything from the medicine industry, to religion, and even the efficacy of product marketing and politics.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Klassified

Like I said, you are free to believe what you want. I don't care. I just don't want to subscribe to an ideology just because it makes me feel good if it were to be true. From what I've seen, humans are notoriously BAD guessers, so the less evidence for a claim, the more likely I think it is wildly off from what is actually happening in reality.

No argument from me. You may very well be right. That's the difference between believing something possible, and turning it into a religion.

Thread #45722 that promises proof of something and delivers no such thing.

Serioously? You thought these videos were proof?

As for miracles....if the sum of your gods miracles is to make statues cry and clouds move oddly and bits of corn flakes look like jesus ...then he is a pitiful, pathetic god. Lets see kids not have to go blind because they drink disgusting water in impoverished countries. THAT will be a miracle..

Or does he only do miracles for god fearing white folk from midwest america?

Pathetic. Even if he did exist (which i dont belive for second he does), he in no way, shape or form deserves to be worshipped. To paraphrase George Carlin:

"if this is the best he can do...im not impressed!"

a reply to: Serdgiam

The people with fears, like illustrated in the video, point to an actual choice involved. Though, it is arguably at a level in the psyche that most are unaware. I think of it in terms of 'hacking' our own minds. The details on that might be considered off topic though.

This is where NLP and hypnosis come in. As well as those things that wouldn't do to say here.

It suggests something happening that is different than simply making changes in our perspective.

Absolutely. The very core of our subconscious programming must be overcome. I was a devout fundamentalist Christian for many years. Overcoming that programming was not an easy task when a person is as deeply involved in it as I was. The core of my beliefs were challenged and finally overcome. What I thought was impossible at one time in my life, became inevitable. I became an atheist. I think it is this type of process, though much, much, faster when you're talking healing, that is conducive to the ability to be healed.

I see that the placebo effect applies to the mind, and the spontaneous healing applies to the body. Probably an erroneous oversimplification, but the facets of this are difficult to pin down. It doesn't help that most exploration of this subject is confined to religion and pharmaceuticals!

I have only accomplished it a few times, but I have been able to turn off pain to parts of my body through self-hypnosis. Sticking a pin through my arm was unnoticeable to me if I turned my head away. So the mind and body are intimately connected.

Then again, if we could actually refine these (placebo effect and spontaneous healing) as a species, it would damage everything from the medicine industry, to religion, and even the efficacy of product marketing and politics.

Well, there is certainly a vested interest in keeping the status quo, I'm sure. We can't have people healing themselves and others for free. I honestly don't know if it will ever be a scientifically replicable theory, but I do know what I've seen and experienced. Who knows, science is on the verge of many breakthroughs, and this could very well be among them. Though I'm sure someone will figure out a way to monetize it.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: DeathSlayer

Malarky. First off, disease and unrest will never go away. There will never be a short supply of the injured or sick. Evolution sees to that with illnesses and people are always inventing newer ways to be unsafe. So I'm sure just about ANY hospital would enjoy you siphoning off some of its work, provided that you had a good success rate. I mean you DO know that we have a critical shortage of medical practitioners in this country right? Second, if you really WERE disbanded from going to hospitals for stealing their business, you could set your own practice up rather easily. Once word got out of a REAL honest to god faith healer actually healing REAL illnesses and injuries, people would be lining up for miles to see you. Especially if you did it for free.

You would think so but not here in Germany. Here they have what is called a seelsorger plus a Catholic priest and Protestant priest assigned to most hospitals, especially in the larger cities. I guess they look at this different than in the states.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Germany can't be any different than America in that regard, because no honest to god faith healers exist yet that would be able to reliably siphon off any potential business from the hospitals. So there is no way to say one way or the other how the hospitals would behave in such an event regardless of the country you are located in.

a reply to: Isurrender73

I enjoyed your post.

Jesus hung out with sinners and consistently rebuked those religious leaders of that time. Why? To show compassion and love for those who did not know God and his kingdom.

Jesus loves us all and hopes that all mankind will be saved from destruction but there are those who reject him and even then he still loves them and hopes they will turn back to him.

Healing those who have faith in Jesus is great but healing those who don't know Jesus or have rejected him can be a soul saving experience that leads another soul saved by the grace of God. An agnostic and/or atheist must be shown 100% proof that God exists and I can understand that and this is my personal mission.....(not doing to great with this right now ) show them how much God loves them by getting them healed.

Finding a lost sheep is more joyful and satisfying than herding the herd.

a reply to: Klassified

Again I agree but for different reasons. I too believe people are healed without God and heaven getting involved however I have also seen those that were allegedly "healed" for a few weeks loose their healing as if it was only temporary or this person comes down with a new disease or disability. This is not the work of God. When God heals it is permanent.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: Klassified

Thanks for the video, I have seen (and participated) in similar experiments but have not seen the one by Brown.

I think it perfectly illustrates the approach that needs to change, as it tends to be based in trickery rather than exploring how to use the effect *without* an actual placebo.

The people with fears, like illustrated in the video, point to an actual choice involved. Though, it is arguably at a level in the psyche that most are unaware. I think of it in terms of 'hacking' our own minds. The details on that might be considered off topic though.

The most interesting cases, to me, are the ones where a physical illness exists (like, say, a broken bone) and it is spontaneously healed. It suggests something happening that is different than simply making changes in our perspective.

I see that the placebo effect applies to the mind, and the spontaneous healing applies to the body. Probably an erroneous oversimplification, but the facets of this are difficult to pin down. It doesn't help that most exploration of this subject is confined to religion and pharmaceuticals!

Then again, if we could actually refine these (placebo effect and spontaneous healing) as a species, it would damage everything from the medicine industry, to religion, and even the efficacy of product marketing and politics.

Very well written so now my turn:

Sure the placebo effect can be effective and it is known to work within the medicine field. Numerous experiments have take place within the field of medicine including praying for a healing which has also been successful. What exactly does the placebo effect do to the person? It gives them hope, right? Well you can say a new FAITH. A belief that this placebo will heal them..... a change of mind. Which is the first step in receiving any healing. Reject it and the condition remains the same if not worse.

Light/chi is very useful for me when it comes to backache and feeling relaxed/comfortable in my body. Not so useful for skin issues and rash. .