U.S. removing Patriot missiles from Turkey

originally posted by: Forensick
What does the UK have except the Type 45 (or is it another Type) anyway ship based.

I don't think we have a patriot style system, our reliance is on MAD.

Your correct its the type 45.

There is not a lot of public information around but its likely the the system on the type 45 that's also shared by the french has ABM capability's. It is currently the best anti air and anti missile system in the world in operation yet and its been hinted at strongly by the navy its capability's extend to anti ballistic missiles.

Thing is the ABM capability of the patriot are likely a gimmick anyway. Any nation with MRV nukes would overwhelm them anyway. Its really only good against North Korean nukes. Russian and Chinese ICBM would just overwhelm them.

well it's good for the soldiers, last time I heard news (6 month ago?) about the german patriot crews was, that they couldn't leave camp because the local population wasn't friendly at all. Soldiers got attacked in Cafés and blamed for various things there, so they had to stay in base for their own safety.

originally posted by: Talliostro
well it's good for the soldiers, last time I heard news (6 month ago?) about the german patriot crews was, that they couldn't leave camp because the local population wasn't friendly at all. Soldiers got attacked in Cafés and blamed for various things there, so they had to stay in base for their own safety.

There's gratitude for you, not sure if I would want to Stationed there on the Syrian border, now put them near Marmaris and I will sign up tomorrow!

originally posted by: Morgil

originally posted by: Forensick
What does the UK have except the Type 45 (or is it another Type) anyway ship based.

I don't think we have a patriot style system, our reliance is on MAD.

You are correct, it is the Type 45 which is primarily an anti-air warfare platform. She is equipped with the PAAMS also called the sea viper in the UK. She is designed for airspace control and defence and having been involved in the build and sea trials, she excels in that capacity.

I believe that the closest to the patriot would be the ageing Rapier system utilised by the army which is due to be replaced by a new system in development.

I heard she can track a cricket ball size over a number of miles away (Type 45), perhaps the Aussie cricket team can use her?

Just googled Rapier replacement, CAMM and CAMM-ER - common antiair modular missile (extended range)

camm

Seems like a decent capability upgrade from rapier (shudders at its lack of performance in the Falklands may have cost lives). FSC was an upgrade too late for some of our boys.

a reply to: Forensick

To be fair in 1983 there had not been a war between two modern armies since the Korean war, let alone a real navy battle. No one really knew what to expect.

Think most of NATO modern weapons have been designed around the results of the Falklands war.

originally posted by: Forensick

originally posted by: Morgil

originally posted by: Forensick
What does the UK have except the Type 45 (or is it another Type) anyway ship based.

I don't think we have a patriot style system, our reliance is on MAD.

You are correct, it is the Type 45 which is primarily an anti-air warfare platform. She is equipped with the PAAMS also called the sea viper in the UK. She is designed for airspace control and defence and having been involved in the build and sea trials, she excels in that capacity.

I believe that the closest to the patriot would be the ageing Rapier system utilised by the army which is due to be replaced by a new system in development.

I heard she can track a cricket ball size over a number of miles away (Type 45), perhaps the Aussie cricket team can use her?

Just googled Rapier replacement, CAMM and CAMM-ER - common antiair modular missile (extended range)

camm

Seems like a decent capability upgrade from rapier (shudders at its lack of performance in the Falklands may have cost lives). FSC was an upgrade too late for some of our boys.

Without saying too much, when we were out on sea trials testing the LRR and MFR (long range radar and multi function radar) she demonstrated exceptional performance in target acquisition and tracking of both close in and long distance/high altitude targets.

In conjunction with the QEC platform which we are in process of building and the Type 26 which we are due to start building in the next year or 2; we have, for the first time in a while, one of the most advanced surface fleets.

originally posted by: Talliostro
well it's good for the soldiers, last time I heard news (6 month ago?) about the german patriot crews was, that they couldn't leave camp because the local population wasn't friendly at all. Soldiers got attacked in Cafés and blamed for various things there, so they had to stay in base for their own safety.

It's actually been like that on and off through the past 70 years we have been in Germany. Anytime the U.S. gets involved in something that is not approved of in Europe (which is pretty much anytime the U.S. gets involved in anything), the Germans like to take it out on the local U.S. military base personnel, resulting in stuff like this. In fact, I remember I was there when things were breaking out in the Balkans and we were sending people to Bosnia. During that period of time, the local military communities were on high alert and we were getting bomb threats constantly. All cars were getting checked, and many places once frequented off base were off limits due to problems with locals and military.

Believe it or not, a lot of people hated being in Germany, and most people, myself included, would try and grab any opportunity for transfer elsewhere. I met some great Germans while there, and had some amazing experiences, but overall, I would have preferred to be stationed elsewhere, including, the Middle East. A lot of us back then (this was during the early to mid 90's, when the massive post cold war downsizing was happening) agreed it was time to go home, now that the cold war was over, and let Europe deal with its own problems in the future.

a reply to: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

We tried leaving Europe to deal with it's own problems before....twice. It ended up costing us more than if we had 'meddled" in the first place.

Nobody messed around in Europe while we were there. An unheard of period of peace in a continent that has been as violent as the ME for a good 2,000 years.

Besides you had a better chance of getting laid in Germany that the ME....

a reply to: nwtrucker

Different times, different circumstances. It is no longer necessary to sit and babysit Europe, and even if it were, I do not believe we are the ones who should be doing it. The world is a lot bigger and more complicated than it was in either World War, and Europe's own power and prominence has severely declined, while Asia and the pacific have increased substantially. That is really where our focus needs to be.

As far as getting laid in ME or Germany, it's a non issue for me. I am female, and even in Saudi, finding a willing and eager male partner on a base filled mainly with young soldiers and airmen was not an issue, if I so wished. However, I really didn't care much about that, as I was on hot crew off base every other 24 hours, and lovin it. In Saudi, we actually got to do our damned jobs unhindered by all the BS back in Germany. For Patriot or any other high profile, high dollar, politically charged weapons units, trying to effectively function and maintain unit readiness in post cold war Germany became a regular nightmare.

They're being replaced by in part by armed drones reigning Hellfire.

Also, not surprised they're hauling the Pats in as they been hacked in both Germany and Turkey recently and might need an update.

a reply to: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Ooops...LMAO. Sorry 'Bout that...lol.

You may be right re Europe. I see the three areas as potentially nasty in a worst case scenario. One would think the EU should take care of itself. ( it probably would if in the background there was strong support from the U.S., leadership wise. They're not getting that leadership from the U.S. currently and are basically 'leaderless' on their own)

Too much of Putin's actions remind me of pre-WWII events.

Yes much has changed since then....and much remains unchanged, including human nature.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Oh, I agree Putin is definitely trying to re-assert himself in Europe and shiz is gonna be getting pretty real on that front over the next few years. It still does not change my opinion that I think we should leave Europe and let them take care of their own defenses. Seriously, we can't do it anymore. We're broke. We're exhausted. And we are already stretched too thin.

There is one potential solution that unfortunately, no one likes or supports, and that is to re-arm Germany and let it become the military counter balance to Russia. Unsurprisingly, no one in Europe wants this, least of all, Russia. And a re-arming Germany might very well provoke Russia into something desperate.

The other solution, I think, would be to get the British to start rebuilding their own military. Historically, Britain and Russia have ended up on the same side of the battlefield more often than not, and Britain has the only military in Europe worth a shiz. The problem here is that the British are rapidly losing interest in military matters and the will to keep a military beyond basic national defense. Simply put, they don't want the job.

We have a bigger growing threat on our very unguarded southern border, and I would rather our forces and efforts go to getting a grip on that mess before it gets out of hand.

a reply to: Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

There is no viable 'out', is there? Sigh.

a reply to: crazyewok

You are somewhat correct. The ABM capabilities are often overstated. The system was originally designed to take out aircraft like bombers. The reason the system was adapted by the army, and not say, the air force, was that it is used to defend everything from airbases and ammo dumps in the rear, to forward operating bases and air cav fields closer to the front, from enemy air craft. It's ABM capabilities were really only being tested for the first time during the first gulf war. The results were actually more favorable than expected, although not as good as say a dedicated system. However, there was extensive work in the 90's onward to refine these capabilities, and have been pretty successful in test runs. We haven't fought against anyone with missiles since the first gulf war, so if those improvements have taken, we don't know for certain.

Regardless, we have way better and more advanced systems for dealing with things like ICBMs and the like. Patriot is more for dealing with more combat directed missiles like SCUDS.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
Germany is too. The mandate ends soon, so they're removing them.

I have heard that the systems were hacked, and are being sendt home for maintenance?

a reply to: spy66

No, if that was the case they wouldn't be waiting until next year to take them home.

a reply to: ~Lucidity

So they're waiting until next year to do it? Updates can be done in the field of necessary. The US mandate ends in October, the German mandate ends in January. There isn't as much of a threat to Turkey so they're taking them home.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: spy66

No, if that was the case they wouldn't be waiting until next year to take them home.

Could be true. But one can read about it here:

europe.newsweek.com...


EDIT:

On the 25 of march this year a scud was fired from Syria into Turkey. It was not intercepted by any of the patriot missiles?
The reason stated for them being withrawn before schedual do to that they are not needed anymore are false.

a reply to: spy66

Yes, I've read that. I've also read that the they've denied that they were hacked at all. But if they need repairs you don't leave them in place for six months before removing them at the end of the mission.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: spy66

Yes, I've read that. I've also read that the they've denied that they were hacked at all. But if they need repairs you don't leave them in place for six months before removing them at the end of the mission.

Well this is politics on a special Level. If these systems were hacked there would be a protocol to be fallowed through pentagon. Rejecting that a hack actually took Place would be one of them for Security reasons. For the systems to need sudden reparis is a fair statment, that could happen. But for the US to pull their systems at the same time as Germany is odd.

I Guess you know about the Scud that was fired at Turkey the 25 of march this year as well?
It was never intercepted by any of the systems. No real reason was given.