why do Police "have" to shoot to KILL every time ??

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

Well said sir !! You clearly make the point, that a well trained confident operative does not "have" to shoot everyone dead for the slightest reason. Tasers should be used more often. Pepper sprays are very effective. Small flash bangs will get everyone's attention. More training in psychology of handling hooligans and drunkards WITHOUT killing them. Etc

originally posted by: MasterKaman
Answer

** well I had a drinking pal in Danang (Vietnam) who was police Captain, and many times fired his ak47 out in the trees, so I do know what guns are Mr.Answer ! I will offer u the same challenge as Shamrock, you run off and I will shoot near your feet, with promise the second bullet goes in your assz, and let's see if you stop or not 😀 then this thread will be more "fun".

>> You also seemingly have no clue what happens when a bullet hits a living thing... if you shoot someone in the ass, the bullet can still kill or paralyze them.
** use a smaller caliber. 22 is enough

>> a firearm should never be used unless killing is justified. SILLY ARGUMENT

If the extent of your experience is shooting trees with an AK47, it's probably perfectly safe to run

Given that the average human runs at around 5 m/s and you're trying to take aimed shots with a handgun, we'll all be well outside the comfortable distance for the kind of precision you're talking about in a stress scenario. Given the short sight radius on a handgun, you'll be shooting minute-of-pie plate against a moving target by the time you're ready for the "ass shot".

Incidentally, your "ass shot" is actually restricted to a very small area of the buttock - otherwise you're putting bullets into the pelvic girdle which is a really dangerous thing to do. I don't shoot handguns as much as I used to (for obvious reasons as I'm normally in the UK) but even when I was shooting them regularly, I still wouldn't try to take that shot.

You can always join a club and spend some time on turning targets, timed comps - heck, you could even have a go at timed Civilian Service Rifle comps, which include sprinting between firing points to get the heart rate up and give a closer approximation of stress. You might get a better understanding of why people are telling you that you're asking for something that most experienced shooters wouldn't want to put money on being able to achieve.

Calibre is not as important as you think. Shot placement is important. A .22 in the right place is still going to kill. In fact, considering that you're shooting at someone's backside, you're just as likely to hit them in the lower spine - so even that .22 is capable of putting the person in a wheelchair for the rest of their life. There's a lot of delicate places around that part of the body, all of which are capable of killing someone or crippling them for life if you hit them.

Having said that calibre isn't important, I'm going to say that there are times when some calibres are inappropriate. A .22 can be deadly with correct shot placement, but makes a rubbish duty round. How many different guns were you planning to carry?

Lethal force is force where death is a likely and foreseeable outcome. Any method that involves poking holes in someone's body is going to be lethal force, because people have a habit of leaking important fluids when you put a hole in them. So, whatever your intention, if you shoot at someone you are using lethal force because there is a significant risk of death. If the situation does not justify that risk of death, don't use a gun. Absolutely not a silly argument.

a reply to: WarriorMH

I have never killed anyone (in this life) but I know how to ram a table fork up your throat no matter how many armies you've been in😀

a reply to: EvillerBob


>> If the extent of your experience is shooting trees with an AK47, it's probably perfectly safe to run .

** actually most people around me did run ! So you may be right. Ok I give in, this has been an interesting thread, now you can all get back to your daily jobs of blowing citizens heads off. How dare they demand "rights". I thought Bush had wiped out your Constitution long ago, so what rights are u dreaming about ?
Over and out Evil Bob and goodby America I will get back to Call of Duty

It's now clear that the level of interweb badassery here is just too much to handle.

I will sleep peaceably tonight knowing that such rough men stand ready to do pinpoint accurate violence on my behalf.

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed


I have been on 17 SWAT raids in my days in LE and just because we are on the internet doesn't mean I can't say what is what. I have disarmed a few suspects that were attempting to hide knives and a few small firearms as well, and never had to shoot anyone, but with how officers now shoot with a trigger finger and the slightest pin drop, that isn't to say I couldn't have done so, and gotten away with it too, but I don't live my life by fear.

If you are so afraid that you have to shoot an old lady in a wheel chair, or shoot someone's little yipping dog, then you shouldn't be a cop in the first place.

Does that make it more clear to you sonny?

Great and if you have been on 17 SWAT raids,entered drug houses and pulled over folks then you would have asked yourself that very question, "am I going to see my family tonight" and would understand certain things better..

Since you dont live your life by fear , that should be the tagline for all internet warriors, I'm sure you would do it much different and much better then the cowardly SWAT and police forces of the world.

a reply to: Shamrock6

I'm scheduled to requal on the spinning high hurdles course soon. I think they are going to let me use speed loaders this year. It's just too damn tough reloading a revolver mid-jump.

a reply to: Bedlam

Time to warm up that u2u button. Obviously in the presence of greatness here!

originally posted by: MasterKaman
a running (or advancing) crook would only need a couple of shots round his feet or into his leg to stop him. and why not use Tasers much more frequently ? the answer is LACK of police training, always aiming for the chest is not necessary. they should calm down and try stepping BACK for a bit of thought and aiming.

You obviously don't understand how physiology works in the human body under high-stress encounters.

The simple answer is that anyone in some sort of law-enforcement or military capacity is trained to shoot "center mass" (the proper term for it) is because that is the largest part of the body at which to aim, and it is also the part of the body that has the best chance of neutralizing the threat with (usually) injury...sometimes someone dies from the wound.

That's the simple and correct answer--any other speculative comments that you read on here is just garbage. Most of the time when a firearm needs to be used, you don't have the time to "try stepping back for a bit of thought." That is naiveté.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

met Beth Hart last month, she was hitting everyone center mass, rippong them up and eating their flesh raw. what a bitch...

youtu.be/lUaut2m4YaI

originally posted by: MasterKaman


Ok I give in, this has been an interesting thread, now you can all get back to your daily jobs of blowing citizens heads off. How dare they demand "rights".

I'm rolling my eyes so hard, they just might get stuck.

a reply to: MasterKaman

Many have already answered this but there's a couple answers. First of all, a gun is designed to kill. It is not designed to wound or disable. If a gun is being used, it's because the decision has been made that a coroner might be necessary to resolve the situation. In a life threatening scenario the biggest target, and coincidentally a target with many important organs is the chest. You want to shoot center mass and as many times as necessary to resolve the situation, this is why cops most often empty a full clip into someone, to do otherwise would be irresponsible.

There is a very low probability of hitting the arms, head, or legs which substantially increases danger to the officer. It also increases danger to others in the vicinity because those missed shots have to go somewhere and hit something, they don't just disappear.

Now with all of that said, the police today reach for their guns far too quickly. Violent crime is way down, yet police firearm use is way up. It used to be that a cop would only reach for their gun a handful of times in their career. About 10 years ago I met a guy who was a cop for 35 years and he would tell me with pride how he managed to make it his entire career without ever having to draw his weapon because he could resolve situations without it. We don't have cops like that anymore. It is safer than ever to be a police officer these days, their chance of an on the job injury is lower than that of an office secretary. They shouldn't be using their guns, or anything else really as often as they do, but in the situations that truly do call for a gun, they should be shooting center mass, and they should be emptying the clip.

a reply to: MasterKaman

Same thing, anything can be a weapon, this Phage guy things the only reason to bring up a weapon is to kill someone, i wonder how i'll be able to cut my onions from now on. Do i have to kill them by force and be remorseful about it? i guess in the end it is the knifes fault, why did it had to be so sharp?

originally posted by: MasterKaman
a reply to: WarriorMH

I have never killed anyone (in this life) but I know how to ram a table fork up your throat no matter how many armies you've been in😀

I've never been in any army, but i know how to shoot at moving targets by the way, if you get to be very close to me with a table fork you better have been invited to thanksgiving at my house. Otherwise i will probably take you down before you reach the porch while running towards my door with that crazy fork in your hand.. I have security cams and made-home proximity alarms by the way.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

Ok.

What is threat of death?

Some one with a weapon close enough to use it on me, who intends to kill me. Is that not the definition of Threat Of Death?

I would guess that threat of death doesn't quite mean what you think it does...

The threat of death to me is someone aiming their weapon in my face...something that can stop me from breathing, you know?
If there is not a weapon acutely pointed at me, live and let live, let the perp talk to a judge.
suppose dude has a contraption strapped to him in a bank robbery, you supposed to shoot him too?

originally posted by: rossacus
a reply to: Phage
Does not police training recommend aiming for the upper part of the mass? I said heart and lungs just to let you know

As a federal security officer on a military base I was trained to fire at the base of the breast bone.
With many semiautomatics this would put the next rapid fire round in the top of the heart and the third to the top of the breast bone.
You will note that you never hear about police shooting of federal property. if you pull a weapon on federal property your out of luck.

Now i have a modified 1911 45 with a ported barrel and i can get four rounds of 165 grain hollow points between the bottom and top of the breast bone firing as fast as i can.

Against a armed intruder on my property i will only fire center of mass.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: MasterKaman
not talking about the 10% citizens who are trainee Jason Bournes, that need instant vaporising.

That's the problem. Some people (including the OP) want the police to shoot (alleged) criminals and act as judge, jury and executioner. If you accept that, then you need to accept that some people being shot will be the "undeserving".

Why not accept that the police should shoot no one and then modify behaviour from there.

You need to leave ATS, you make too much sense and it's not allowed.

And I think Phage is overreacting, which is very appropriate for ATS. Paraphi's comment makes absolute sense. It should be the goal to NOT draw a weapon or shoot someone. But this goes back to training and to the mental health of the actual officer.

Right now police are being trained as if they are in a war zone. America is far from a war zone, as violent crime is dropping and has been dropping. Even gangsters avoid shoot outs with cops. It's very rare a cop is actually shot by a perpetrator.