Clerk's office defies order; no same-sex marriage licenses

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: mymymy
Religious bigotry will end when "Christians" stop cherry picking from the Bible.

Hopefully they stop asking this woman to resign and just fire her.

I would have to agree. The judge ruled against her. So either issue licenses, or your employment is terminated.

It's next to impossible to fire someone from a government job. Forcing her to resign is the best answer they can hope for.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: mymymy
Religious bigotry will end when "Christians" stop cherry picking from the Bible.

Hopefully they stop asking this woman to resign and just fire her.

I would have to agree. The judge ruled against her. So either issue licenses, or your employment is terminated.

It's next to impossible to fire someone from a government job. Forcing her to resign is the best answer they can hope for.

True enough. And I'm not so sure that's a bad thing. The case made against an elected public servant should have to be proved, and due process observed. Which, in this case is happening. We'll just have to wait and see the end result, and if the system actually works in this case. It could set a precedent.

It's my God given right to own slaves. The Bible explicitly says so! I will FIGHT anyone who seeks to impose their unholy laws upon my religious freedoms....

Oh, wait. Wrong century... My bad.

Still, the same ridiculous argument.

I wonder how this debate would be changed if it was a Muslim in the dmv office refusing to issue driver's licenses to women....

and hey if you accept that the little country clerk shouldn't have to issue marriage licenses because of her religious beliefs, then you have to accept that if the courts went along with that then you'd have to accept that it set a precedent for the Muslim dmv worker. The only difference would be that most dmv offices have far more workers and might be able to accommodate the muslim by sending the women to another person, whereas this county would have to probably appoint a second country clerk, with a second salary to be paid to accommodate this lady.

There's no shortage of mis-guided religious nuts out there, of all nationalities, of all religions.


a reply to: Klassified

originally posted by: dawnstar
I wonder how this debate would be changed if it was a Muslim in the dmv office refusing to issue driver's licenses to women....

and hey if you accept that the little country clerk shouldn't have to issue marriage licenses because of her religious beliefs, then you have to accept that if the courts went along with that then you'd have to accept that it set a precedent for the Muslim dmv worker. The only difference would be that most dmv offices have far more workers and might be able to accommodate the muslim by sending the women to another person, whereas this county would have to probably appoint a second country clerk, with a second salary to be paid to accommodate this lady.

It's even bigger than that. County clerks are in charge of all of those licenses in the county (which licenses they're responsible for depends on the county). So if a county clerk's office refuses to issue or submit a specific type of license, there's no one else in the entire county that you can go to.

So in your example w/driver's licenses, I (the hypothetical Muslim county clerk) would be able to prevent all women in the entire county from getting a driver's license. It wouldn't matter which dmv building you visited or who your specific teller was. As long as they were in my county, they'd all answer to me & follow my directives. (Though to be fair, Islam isn't against women driving. My Mom's the one who taught me how to drive lol. Only Saudi Arabia bans women from driving, and it's not even the actual law there, though they enforce it as an unwritten rule.)

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I do believe that it's the state government that the dmvs fall under, not the country. but well, the point I am making is that people have varied beliefs, heck some might have a problem with women working....so, well, if the clerk in the dept of labor who is in charge of issuing work permits for minors because they believe this way should that mean that all the girls in the area can get work permits???
if you allow such logic for one or two issues like gay marriage or birth control, they you have to allow it for the other beliefs out there in order for the laws to be consistent.
so, well there's a good chance that those who are whining about their right to practice their religion are apt to find that their own rights would be trampled by someone's elses faulty beliefs....otherwise, then the US would be contradicting the constitution because they would be approving of some beliefs while not others.

a reply to: dawnstar

Yeah I understand what you meant. I was just pointing out the scope of the county clerk's power. I didn't want anyone to think the woman in the OP was just a "clerk" and that citizens could go to another teller & get the license. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

no they'd have two choices, either let her go and hire someone who would do all of the job, or hire another employee who would handle just the marriage licenses....
but well, the country really has no choice, they have to provide marriage licenses to same sex couples, regardless of this clerk's religious beliefs.

Either she starts issuing permits, or she gets impeached/recalled. Get a Clerk in there, who will do the government-job.

Whats the hold up ?

originally posted by: CrawlingChaos
Either she starts issuing permits, or she gets impeached/recalled. Get a Clerk in there, who will do the government-job.

Whats the hold up ?

Don't profess to know the specifics of doing that. My gut tells me if it was that simple it would have been done by now. But how do you ensure the next person won't do the same? Again, if you feel any law is wrong feel free to stand your ground and fight, if you are prepared to accept any possible consequences, good luck

Funny that people are saying that the lady's rights are being violated. If anything, the judge is reinforcing her rights by making her uphold the current laws.

Romans 13:1-5 ESV Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Titus 3:1 ESV / 103 helpful votes Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

Romans 2:13 ESV / 91 helpful votes For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

The bible clearly states in several places that Christs followers are to obey the law; by refusing to issue the marriage licenses, not only is this woman going against the law, she's going against her own religion.

a reply to: tebyen

She was already going against her religion by judging others in God's place.

a reply to: Klassified

that none of this woman's rights to practice her religion have been stripped from her.

Phew, that's a relief.

She has just been ordered to follow the law, as her beliefs do not excuse her from doing so...

Um... Wait; what? She's free to practice her faith but only as permissible by law. Gotcha.

originally posted by: JohnFisher
Um... Wait; what? She's free to practice her faith but only as permissible by law. Gotcha.

Yes. Pretty simple to understand actually. Doing so removes problems such as allowing child sacrifice, killing people because you think they're witches, slavery by divine order and a whole host of other things which people might start saying is perfectly acceptable because they "believe" it is.

a reply to: JohnFisher

If working for a secular government offends her, she can quit. Nobody is forcing her to work for an entity that includes a separation from the Church in it's charter.

If she wanted, she could find any number of jobs for Christian owned businesses that would happily never ask her to compromise her convictions. SHE is the one trying to dictate to OTHERS... not the other way around.

This really isn't complex stuff.

If she cant do her job, someone else will be happy to do it, religious people aren't helping there cause by going against there own holy book.

originally posted by: tebyen
Funny that people are saying that the lady's rights are being violated. If anything, the judge is reinforcing her rights by making her uphold the current laws.

Romans 13:1-5 ESV Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

Titus 3:1 ESV / 103 helpful votes Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

Romans 2:13 ESV / 91 helpful votes For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

The bible clearly states in several places that Christs followers are to obey the law; by refusing to issue the marriage licenses, not only is this woman going against the law, she's going against her own religion.

Those are slight misrepresentations of scripture. Yes, obey the worldly authorities. However, if these God appointed authorities turn from Him and demand you to turn from Him too, then do not turn from Him. It's the same outlining principle in families and marriage. Women be submissive to their husbands, but if one's husband demands her to turn from God she should not. You don't have to agree with the teachings, but that's basically what they actually are.

originally posted by: Hefficide
a reply to: JohnFisher

If working for a secular government offends her, she can quit. Nobody is forcing her to work for an entity that includes a separation from the Church in it's charter.

If a secular government will not accommodate her morals and values like they do only for secularists, then they should just fire her. Like it or not, she's doing what's morally right in her faith. It's on the secular entity to let her go. Why should she quit? She had the job before this was a legal thing.

a reply to: JohnFisher

Which is a perfect example of why we are a Secular Nation rather than a Religious one.

Because Religious laws are nothing more than a bunch of BS Dogma made up by men thousands of years ago to control others, especially women, into serving them.

Instead we use logic and reason, at least mostly when we do it correctly, and we allow for ourselves to change them should a better or more correct option apply.