While we weren't looking, Russia steals another 1.5 Km of Georgian territory

Interesting that this has been pretty much overlooked in the news over the past month, what with the whole US political noise.

Late on 10 July, Russian troops placed new demarcation signposts along the administrative boundary between the annexed territory of South Ossetia, which was removed from Georgia's jurisdiction by force in the war of 2008, and Tbilisi-controlled territory.

Crucially, a further 1.5km into the Georgian territory was added overnight. The new "border" is now a de facto occupation line, just a mile away from a major highway linking Georgia's eastern and western regions

Viewpoint: What's behind Russia's actions in Georgia?

A small number of ATS members, including myself, suggested from the beginning that Ukraine was not the end goal, that more would follow. Ultimately I never believed that Crimea was worth the damage done to Russia, in fact not even Eastern Ukraine would make it worth the damage done, or even the whole of Ukraine.

Russia has lost allies, destroyed trust with several neighboring nations, and in fact ultimately encouraged the majority of its neighbors to seek closer ties with Nato and Europe - something it claims to be entirely against while seemingly doing all it can to actively force that position.

This part of the article is very interesting:

Russia's actions are also a consequence of its current anti-Western bent, which needs external enemies for regime maintenance and Putin's high approval ratings at home. With the war in Ukraine at a stalemate, and the Nato Article V pledge to come to the rescue of the Baltic states in case of Russian provocation, Moscow needs an easier target.

This is actually something I had kind of come to on my own, but perhaps missed the main reason. For months it's been pointed out that Russia seems to be acting in ways which directly force its neighbours to seek assistance from Europe and Nato, while pretending it's oblivious to this fact. I suppose I just missed the reason for doing that, which turns out to be internal politics and the need for the external threat.

Several governments do this of course, including in the US and UK. Enemies are useful tools for solidifying public sentiment when handled correctly through media.

Finally, this final part toward the end of the piece catches the attention:

Unless the West sends a clearer message about the unacceptability of Russia's policies and defends any violation of Georgia's statehood, Russia may be emboldened to make further territorial advances.

Could we see Nato or other allies taking action to defend Georgia against further theft of territory?
I have to say that I doubt it. The world seems preoccupied, and I really believe that Russia could probably play a game of What's The Time Mr. Wolf all the way though Georgia before the world realized it was too late.

How many other "soft targets" are there for Russia, before it meets a response from Nato?

With the hit they've taken from the sanctions, anything they continue from here on surprises me. Though I always knew Putin was an old school Soviet I am still surprised with the course they are on.

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
With the hit they've taken from the sanctions, anything they continue from here on surprises me. Though I always knew Putin was an old school Soviet I am still surprised with the course they are on.

I've read up a little on Putin's psychology and I do believe a couple of analysts have been right on point with their assertion that this all goes back to the fall of the Berlin Wall and his time in Germany. From what I've read he was terrified of the public movement, the organic overthrow of authority.

The man is clearly something of an egomaniac, he has many traits publicly on show, from the way he walks into a room to the amount of cosmetic surgery he's had. He's kind of like a Russian Trump, only with more common sense and diplomacy.

I really am convinced that he has something of a romantic notion about reforming the USSR, under force if needed. I know there are some who seem to think that this is stretching things a little too far, but those same people also then agree that he's entirely unpredictable, so they're in no real position to be absolutely sure that's not what he's dreaming of.

I do think it's partially about needing that public support at home, but the lengths he goes to in order to maintain that will surely need to be extended each time, otherwise he'll hit a wall. Just how far can he go to maintain that nationalist fervor before needing to actually be at war with an enemy?

a reply to: Rocker2013

Worrying times we live in , it seems everywhere you look there's war , famine , pestilence and disease.
When I was a kid I thought it wold be cool to be at the end of the world , not so sure now though.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: Rocker2013

Worrying times we live in , it seems everywhere you look there's war , famine , pestilence and disease.
When I was a kid I thought it wold be cool to be at the end of the world , not so sure now though.

In all honesty, none of this is new.
I'm now in my 30's, and when I was in my teens there was just as much war, just as much pestilence, just as much disease, in fact there was probably more.

I remember the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Cold War, I remember the AIDS epidemic and the ignorance and fear that came with it, I remember the Chernobyl disaster and the fear of millions developing cancer, I remember the bombings by the IRA. I remember the fund raising for starving kids in African nations, I remember the anti-Apartheid protests against South Africa, I remember the Poll Tax riots in the UK...

Really, nothing has gotten worse since the 80's, this is certainly not the end of the world.

While we weren't looking, Russia steals another 1.5 Km of Georgian territory

Well let the games begin.

Putin is pushing to see how far he can go before it has to be brought to an end.

Will be interesting to see how Georgia responds to this.

a reply to: Rocker2013

I was a teenager in the 80's and well remember the cold war and Mutually Assured Destruction , in my opinion things are much worse today , there are flash-points all over the world and the actions of both Russia and China give serious cause for concern.

I hope the actions of Russia are just designed to annoy NATO and the US but suspect there is more at play than meets the eye.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Georgia has filed diplomatic protests and I think took it to the UN as well. As for a response I doubt Georgia will employ their military considering what occurred back in 2008. Based on the world reaction to Ukraine, that is just another caution about engaging Russia militarily as they wont be getting military assistance.. yet.

I think these are tests by Russia to see what a reaction they will bring. I think Russia is going to assume they will get the same response should they roll into a NATO country.

Russia's aggression towards Finland and Sweden is a prime example of what we have been saying - Putin's actions forces the very results he doesn't want. Threatening those 2 countries with military action / violating their sovereign air and sea territory and then threatening them militarily for looking to join NATO speaks to that.

once again Russian aggression towards a former soviet republic that wants nothing to do with Russia.

Putin is going to make a mistake and the Russian people are going to pay for it.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Putin is going to make a mistake and the Russian people are going to pay for it.

I think this is what many fear to be honest, and that's kind of confirmed (without actually saying so) by the constant suggestions that Putin is "unpredictable".

He's deliberately so, of course.

I do wonder if too many analysts and leaders are viewing him in completely the wrong way. Being a leader comes with a certain expectation attached to it, but as we know from the likes of Blair and Bush it certainly isn't true that merely being in that position makes you any more intelligent or rational as a Human being.

I just wonder if people are giving him too much credit, assuming he'll be rational, sane, when in reality he might just be a madman with the title of "leader" giving people false expectations.

I do believe that there will be more. It's clear that Russia needs an enemy to solidify public support behind Putin, and that enemy is likely to remain "the West". We do have interests in Georgia, and some believe it's unlikely we would all just sit back and twiddle our thumbs while Russia makes a move on it. I'm not so sure we'll notice if it's done quietly and at the right time.

My prediction is that we'll see Georgia being incrementally taken by "rebels" (who mysteriously all have specific accents and Russian weapons), and then the same will begin elsewhere.

Also important not to forget the journalists in Lithuania, who were approached to spread pro-Russian propaganda in the country in what was believed to be an attempt to set the groundwork for a "rebellion" there too. Thankfully the journalists they attempted to recruit were entirely in support of their nations sovereignty and had no intention of working for the Russians.

Can the same be said of other journalists in other countries?

Georgia needs strong neighbors to support them and that would mean Turkey. Turkey is led by complete selfish morons who have no friends anymore. They did not lift a finger the first time and they wont again till Russian troops are at their border threatening them. If Turkey speak up in a big way or did send in troops to reinforce Georgia's borders, Putin would think long and hard about staying there.

NATO needs to step up and call Russia out on this. Letting Putin get away with anything is a very bad idea. He will keep taking until he gets punched in the face..

Funny how no one cares anymore about your anti-Russia propaganda, other then the usual anti-Russia shills having a cry amongst themselves. Everyone knows who you are and what your agenda is, no one cares. Scraping the bottom of the barrell here. Very well, continue.

Russia's leaders fail their people again and again.

originally posted by: Velatropa24
Funny how no one cares anymore about your anti-Russia propaganda, other then the usual anti-Russia shills having a cry amongst themselves. Everyone knows who you are and what your agenda is, no one cares. Scraping the bottom of the barrell here. Very well, continue.

By all means feel free to post information / sources / etc to support your position and counter what's posted. If all you are going to do is attack the people on the opposite side of the fence without adding anything else then why bother posting? Go whine somewhere else like putin does.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Velatropa24
Funny how no one cares anymore about your anti-Russia propaganda, other then the usual anti-Russia shills having a cry amongst themselves. Everyone knows who you are and what your agenda is, no one cares. Scraping the bottom of the barrell here. Very well, continue.

By all means feel free to post information / sources / etc to support your position and counter what's posted. If all you are going to do is attack the people on the opposite side of the fence without adding anything else then why bother posting? Go whine somewhere else like putin does.

Well, here is the funny part - Putin doesnt whine, he silently does what he needs to secure the interests of Russia and the Russian people. All the whining goes on here by the likes of you... Helpless zeroes who don't make an iota of difference in any situation they whine about. It's all you can do... quite funny to watch from the side really. At least it's one positive side to all the hate negativity you put out.

originally posted by: Velatropa24

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Velatropa24
Funny how no one cares anymore about your anti-Russia propaganda, other then the usual anti-Russia shills having a cry amongst themselves. Everyone knows who you are and what your agenda is, no one cares. Scraping the bottom of the barrell here. Very well, continue.

By all means feel free to post information / sources / etc to support your position and counter what's posted. If all you are going to do is attack the people on the opposite side of the fence without adding anything else then why bother posting? Go whine somewhere else like putin does.

Well, here is the funny part - Putin doesnt whine, he silently does what he needs to secure the interests of Russia and the Russian people. All the whining goes on here by the likes of you... Helpless zeroes who don't make an iota of difference in any situation they whine about. It's all you can do... quite funny to watch from the side really. At least it's one positive side to all the hate negativity you put out.

So......it's Allright to just seize neighboring countries territory? Wow, that's a pretty enlightened position you have there. No wonder all the Former Eastern European States and even quite a few former parts of the USSR fear what Russia is doing. The average Russian needs to evaluate what path their leaders are taking them down.

originally posted by: pavil

originally posted by: Velatropa24

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Velatropa24
Funny how no one cares anymore about your anti-Russia propaganda, other then the usual anti-Russia shills having a cry amongst themselves. Everyone knows who you are and what your agenda is, no one cares. Scraping the bottom of the barrell here. Very well, continue.

By all means feel free to post information / sources / etc to support your position and counter what's posted. If all you are going to do is attack the people on the opposite side of the fence without adding anything else then why bother posting? Go whine somewhere else like putin does.

Well, here is the funny part - Putin doesnt whine, he silently does what he needs to secure the interests of Russia and the Russian people. All the whining goes on here by the likes of you... Helpless zeroes who don't make an iota of difference in any situation they whine about. It's all you can do... quite funny to watch from the side really. At least it's one positive side to all the hate negativity you put out.

So......it's Allright to just seize neighboring countries territory? Wow, that's a pretty enlightened position you have there. No wonder all the Former Eastern European States and even quite a few former parts of the USSR fear what Russia is doing. The average Russian needs to evaluate what path their leaders are taking them down.

The average Russian does not take instructions from USA on what to think, what and how to evaluate, what to do and how to live. Get used to it.

a reply to: Velatropa24

So is it Allright to seize another neighboring countries territory? Or are you going to just gloss that over?

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: Velatropa24

So is it Allright to seize another neighboring countries territory? Or are you going to just gloss that over?

In this case, given the history of Crimea things are not as black and white as you would like to present them. The morality of America causing colour revolutions in sovereign nations who do not fit their interests on the other hand, is a much more interesting question. Not to mention Kosovo.

a reply to: Velatropa24

No he does what he does to secure his own interests which have nothing to do with the Russian people however they bear the brunt of his failures.

The average Russian is told what to thin via Russian propaganda. If the Russian government had a vested interest in the Russian people they would not go to the extreme to prevent the Russian people from knowing the truth.

Do you have anything to support your position or are you going to just attack members?

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Velatropa24

No he does what he does to secure his own interests which have nothing to do with the Russian people however they bear the brunt of his failures.

The average Russian is told what to thin via Russian propaganda. If the Russian government had a vested interest in the Russian people they would not go to the extreme to prevent the Russian people from knowing the truth.

Do you have anything to support your position or are you going to just attack members?

...and American propaganda has nothing to do with your position? If you think that all Russian people have no brains and get spoon fed there' information by Putin himself, have no other news sources and are incapable of logical thought, you my friend are mistaking. The history of your posts and the topics you participated in on the other hand, paints a completely different picture about you.

As for sources and the way I chose to participate in this thread - it is entirely up to me, not you or anyone else. I will participate in the way that I chose and if I chose.

You would think that a person as opinionated and active as you would have researched enough sources by now and would not require spoon feeding, hence my opinion of you as a shill.

Opinion without knowledge = ignorance/stupidity. Chosing some facts to support your story and ignoring others = agenda to influence public opinion.

A recent example of this is "Russian agression against Sweden and Finland", entering there territorial waters and airspace. If you did your research you would know that there is no confirmed facts of such activity - zero. An american spy plane on the other hand, illegaly entered Swedish airspace recently trying to escape Russian jet fighters. Any truth and lie from your side to demonize Russia. Anyway - my conclusion is that you are a shill with an agenda and anything you post is safe to ignore, like sorcha faal. Others see it to.

Wise is not he who had proven something, but he who knew the truth and didn't argue. I am not here to shift your or anyone elses opinion, I don't have an agenda like you. I will participate in the way that I chose - namely answer anyone's questions if I find them worthy of my attention. Otherwise, you or what you believe are not interesting to me.