Jihad vs. the Shopping Mall

So, before you jump to contest this on a blind reflex, remember that you are an insulated Westerner with no idea how the world works outside your little bubble. Your politics are not the world's politics; your beliefs are not the world's beliefs; your morals are not the world's morals.

And, most importantly, your sensibilities are irrelevant.

This is a good article written by a guy who has lived and travelled extensively in the Middle East (i.e. he is an authority on this subject, you are not), I would recommend reading it if you're someone who's willing to learn.

That’s a mistake. American exceptionalism is always just American provincialism, no matter how benevolent it seems. Not everyone is like us, and a lot of people are actively trying not to become like us. Jihadis are, roughly speaking, the armed wing of that group.
The truth about the clash of civilizations you hear people discussing is that it’s all the other way: The Mall is invading Islam, the Mall is taking over. There isn’t any Sharia Law in North Carolina, but there damn well are US-style malls in even the most conservative Islamic countries.

In Najran, in the most remote corner of Saudi Arabia, a state so afraid of Western contamination that it doesn’t even issue tourist visas, there is a mall. And, when I lived there, you could watch —literally watch—the conflict between Sharia Law and Mall culture, five times a day.

.............



It’s hard to see how defensive jihad is, when you come from the homeland of the malls. At first, when you get to a place like Najran, you notice how alien and annoying everything is, how unlike California. Slowly you begin to realize that all the ingredients of California are being added to the mix.

It’s amazing how well most people handle this very volatile, unstable mix. When people are flooded with so much alien culture and technology, you’d expect wilder upheavals than we’re getting, especially in rural patriarchies like the one that used to operate unchallenged in Saudi Arabia. It’s not a surprise—not at all—that a fraction of the young males from there joined up for jihad. The real surprise is that there are so few of them.

www.nsfwcorp.com...

"he is an authority on this subject, you are not

Proof by intimidation fallacy...
Or appeal to accomplishments fallacy...

Take your pick.


I may even agree with the underlying premise, but the above fallacies are all too evident.

a reply to: Talorc

This is way to overcomplicating what is going on

We screwd with them for ages, they hate us

They don't know how else to try and hurt us so they do Islamic jihad

Bottom line

a reply to: Talorc

Yes, this is thought-provoking.

The culture of the west (with America in the lead) is so dominant, so seductive to the rest of the world, especially young people. And it is a glorious culture. But it is also understandable that many look at what is happening and see it as their cultures and heritage being destroyed.

Imagine being some regular Joe in Texas or something. One day your son comes home listening to Persian pop music and gets mad at you for eating bacon. Your daugther starts wearing a Burkha and getting Henna tattoos or some #. You would be pissed off and scared.

But what can you do? Woe to the vanquished.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs

"he is an authority on this subject, you are not

Proof by intimidation fallacy...
Or appeal to accomplishments fallacy...

Take your pick.


I may even agree with the underlying premise, but the above fallacies are all too evident.

Well, I just pulled this off a Wikipedia page:

Appeals to accomplishment are fallacies only when they are simple appeals to authority. It is not fallacious to rely on the testimony of a person who has attained a certain level of education or experience if they can produce further evidence to back up their positions when required.

I'd say the author produces ample evidence. The article isn't relying only on his background, so "appeal to accomplishment" doesn't seem to apply here. Dunno about the other one.....

a reply to: Talorc

The article isn't relying only on his background

No, but you did when you said "he is an authority on this subject, you are not"...
You didn't leave much to be debated here in that sense.

a reply to: Talorc

arent malls shutting down and failing at an alarming rate in the usa? most dont have full occupancy and seem to be a dying breed with online shopping ,not desputing or agreeing with your premise op just found it odd that it seems they are dying here and thriving there

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Eh, people should debate the article's conclusions, not just what I wrote at the top. What I wrote doesn't really matter, it's not the point.

I felt compelled to mention his experience because far too many people here talk out of their arse about anything they feel like. They think they understand a subject after skimming a few web pages. Try and debate that.

a reply to: Talorc

Ya you could have done with out your entire first paragraph.

If you want to to make a point, it is a good idea to not start it all of with insults to those you want to read what you have to say.

a reply to: Talorc

My apologies Talorc, nothing stops ATS debating anyways & I'd hate to be seen as a derailer.
Just thought it best to let you know how it came across.


What do I think you say, well...


I think he has a point.
There will be extremist conservatives no matter where they lay there hat...

But I also think he is making light of the mall theory...

You can't talk about creeping shariah law in one statement and then look abroad and say they should be grateful for our democracy and freedom we force into them.


It does a disservice to any with intelligence.

originally posted by: RalagaNarHallas
a reply to: Talorc

arent malls shutting down and failing at an alarming rate in the usa? most dont have full occupancy and seem to be a dying breed with online shopping ,not desputing or agreeing with your premise op just found it odd that it seems they are dying here and thriving there

Yeah, good point. It's strange how different things happen in different parts of the world. Very peculiar! I will have to think about this. Hmm.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

For all his merits as a writer (I've been reading his articles for years), he still carries a notable bias.

You'll notice in the article, he calls resistance to foreign cultural interference as "futile and ridiculous". I disagree with that, if only because the current system isn't eternal. People like him assume that the world continues on it's course indefinitely. Mounting evidence is contrary to that idea. Assuming Western military/political/economic supremacy endures, the reactionary backlash will keep growing to the point where it's not containable, I think. There will always be malcontents, and for every malcontent you kill, you inadvertently produce 20 more. Maybe they lived in the village you bombed to get to him, maybe they're his relatives, maybe they were sitting on the fence before and now you've just strengthened their resolve.

The real problem with the "shopping mall" is that it always wins in the short-term. The article was absolutely right about that. People will always give in to quick satiation, nevermind the long-term detriment. It's just like how if you put a piece of cake in front of someone, and say "you have the option to either eat this cake, or you have the option to meditate and clear your mind", people will usually eat the cake. Meditating and clearing your mind may be more beneficial, but it isn't so appealing when faced with the allure of cake.

In the same way, preserving your culture may be far more noble and good in the long run, but most people would rather just eat the cake. This is the power and the poison of consumerism, I think. The capitalist-consumer system is unassailable, in the short term. This is the very reason many "fanatics" feel compelled to take up arms and kill- they see no other way to defeat the cake. Truly, there is other way to defeat the cake, at least for them.

Whether this system survives the test of time, pitted against increasingly desperate and angry people around the world, is another matter.

It "Shopping MALL" a euphimism for 21st Century civilization?
Cause while I am FINE with the rejection of western customs or products.i really won't ligitimize Jihadis as anything but obstructionists to modern progress and MALLS have little to do with it.
We spoke with Saudi Firemen when they took my squad in from the rain while we were making a junk food run to the store on King Khalida,bout how they felt about America and why we were there for Desert Sheild
They seemed QUITE glad they said "US MIGHT" as they put it.
NOTHING about faith infidels JUST a thank you..

a reply to: Talorc

remember that you are an insulated Westerner with no idea how the world works outside your little bubble. Your politics are not the world's politics; your beliefs are not the world's beliefs; your morals are not the world's morals.

And, most importantly, your sensibilities are irrelevant.

This is a good article written by a guy who has lived and travelled extensively in the Middle East (i.e. he is an authority on this subject, you are not)

For all his merits as a writer ... he still carries a notable bias.

Hmm... This sounds like the way militaries & cults break a person down mentally before rebuilding him/her in their image. However, then you admit this "authority" who knows better than all of us has notable biases. But we're not supposed to question him or his conclusions because we're too ignorant to notice the same biases you admitted he has?

And what makes you think everyone here is a Westerner or has never traveled to (or lived in) the Middle East? You do realize this is a global forum right? Plus, there are a lot of different demographics & cultures in the African & Asian countries we collectively call "the Middle East". His observations in that part of Saudi Arabia don't hold water to other parts of Saudi Arabia, much less the other African & Asian countries we collectively call the Middle East.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I'll say this. The part you quoted leaves out the fact that many Saudis are educated in the West. And that Saudi Arabia's regions have been importing technology from the West since the region was still territory in the Ottoman Empire. And Saudi Arabia's major cities are incredibly high tech & already have all of the amenities that western cities have. And he completely leaves out Wahabism, which is the source of the "backlash" against Westernization, not Islam.

And sorry, I was going to read the entire article before commenting but no way! You didn't mention that the article was so long. (grumble grumble... I think I'm a little grumpy... grumble)

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Well, "progress" is not a word you should use. It's tempting to think of history as a simple linear progression, moving steadily towards human advancement and greater freedom, but I don't believe that to be the case necessarily. While we might move forward in many ways, is it so hard to believe we've taken a few steps back in others?

Certainly we're not doing any favors for the planet, and if you asked the environment what it thought about our "progress", it may disagree with you. Just the same, we're moving towards an extreme form of cultural homogenization. Is that also "progress"? It's certainly debatable. It's all debatable, really.

I'm not looking to legitimize jihadis either, just provide some context for what's going on in the world today.

a reply to: Talorc

So, someone in SA builds a shopping mall, which is merely a group of retailers sharing space under one roof, and that's an excuse for Jihad? If you are that afraid of any small societal change, is it not my fault.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
It "Shopping MALL" a euphimism for 21st Century civilization?
Cause while I am FINE with the rejection of western customs or products.i really won't ligitimize Jihadis as anything but obstructionists to modern progress and MALLS have little to do with it.
We spoke with Saudi Firemen when they took my squad in from the rain while we were making a junk food run to the store on King Khalida,bout how they felt about America and why we were there for Desert Sheild
They seemed QUITE glad they said "US MIGHT" as they put it.
NOTHING about faith infidels JUST a thank you..

Let's be real here , that was desert storm , ask them how they feel today ?

bet you will receive a differing opinion.

Slick way to try and Glorify the 'US Might " though .

originally posted by: pfishy
a reply to: Talorc

So, someone in SA builds a shopping mall, which is merely a group of retailers sharing space under one roof, and that's an excuse for Jihad? If you are that afraid of any small societal change, is it not my fault.

Right, just like it's not my fault the point of this thread went way over your head. You just reduced an argument on culture clash to a literal issue about "shopping malls".

Reductionism and selective ignorance are time-tested strategies, I suppose.

a reply to: Kapusta

Their words not mine and it was my butt not theirs up front,naturally they wanted us not them.
They would STILL love for America to cover them anyone would.But NOT under THIS nut job of a president.

originally posted by: Talorc
It’s amazing how well most people handle this very volatile, unstable mix. When people are flooded with so much alien culture and technology, you’d expect wilder upheavals than we’re getting, .....

.... The real surprise is that there are so few of them.

Because everyone loves the freedom malls give, don't matter which religion you are...

Don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out...

I work in Middle East so I know.

Most people don't bother about religion anymore. It's reduced to an existence of mere labels. My co-worker is a Muslim Arab and I'm a Christian and we both love going to the malls!

The only reason extremists exist is to give us challenges to build our strength....So that one day, we'll get strong enough to vaporize the extremists just by looking at them! While they keep devolving to utter dumbness!