T-X getting interesting

Despite there being no officially confirmed time line for the program the competition for the T-X is heating up quickly. Here's where things currently stand:

Northrop says they will unveil their clean sheet design "in the coming months".

Boeing/SAAB says they may fly their clean sheet design by the end of the year, or early next year.

Alenia Aermacchi is in talks with an undisclosed new partner, probably Textron. Their proposal was initially thought to have been disqualified based on the RFI, but it was determined that it barely meets requirements.

Lockheed/KAI are planning to add a dorsal fuel tank with a refueling receptacle to the T-50 to meet the requirements.

aviationweek.com...

a reply to: Zaphod58
If I understand it the right way, they are looking for an aircraft to train future F35 pilots?
It makes sense that they do not train on the actual aircraft(costs,damage?) but I wonder if you can transfer the characteristics of one plane to another. Know what I mean? How do they make sure the planes behave somehow like the other one. Do they add canards or something to the training plane? What about the new systems and the helmet, can they be simulated/integrated into those training planes?

Could be I have a total lack of understanding how this is ment to work.

Edit: Or is it just to get them learn how to fly because the F35 will be the first plane they fly?
Like coming from school and be trained on the F35 directly so they have to learn how to fly??

a reply to: verschickter

I would imagine they'd have similar instrumentation? Getting the aerodynamics and flight characteristics might not be what they're going for -- but rather having the pilots trained on all the controls.

It's like learning to type, and then giving someone a new, more awesome keyboard.

a reply to: MystikMushroom
I think to much on flying envelopes? Your comment makes sense.
I hope zaphod has something to tell about that. Will they integrate the controls exactly as they would be on the F35? I mean, will they produce another aircraft with the exact cockpit controls like the F35 would have but much cheaper of course and without the sensor suit?

a reply to: verschickter

Not just the F-35, but the F-22 and future fighters as well. They'll integrate the systems as best as they can simulate for the aircraft they're going to fly afterwards.

The T-38 has been in service a long time, and it's a great trainer, but it doesn't have anywhere near the capabilities they need for new aircraft. It doesn't even have an in flight refueling capability.

I take it we are sticking with the Hawk in the UK?

a reply to: biggilo

Indeed but a new one with a glass cockpit and other new toys if memory serves I think we order'd an initial 28.

RAB

Geez we backdated to Turboshaft airplanes for our trainers..

Navy/Marine Corps use the T-45 to teach basic jet work: Formation, Bombing, Dogfighting, Carrier Landings, etc. No A/A refueling, but we've gotten that in the real AC for a long time.

The biggest training leap from any trainer to a full combat capable aircraft is the integrated systems anyway. There are many systems trainers that don't need real A/C in order teach the switchology/tactics. Plus, with the helmet (HMCS) they could likely build a pretty good VR trainer with an integrated screen in the visor anyway. The monkey skills of flying are really secondary to system operation anyway. The biggest caveats are Dogfighting, refueling, carrier landing.

Consider that there are no 2 seat A-10s, or F-22s or multi-pilot F-14s. We have put new pilots into those aircraft for quite some time on their first flight.

a reply to: cosmania

Even leaving out systems integration and all, the Talon is getting long in the tooth. It was introduced in 1961. It's a great little trainer, but they really need something new.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: verschickter
It doesn't even have an in flight refueling capability.

Is that important thought? I mean, you don't really need to teach that at UPT. It's something you can teach in the b-course with lots of help from sims like they do right now. Doing AR rides in UPT would cost even more money and wear and tear on the tankers because you'd have to launch more tanker sorties to keep up with the AR rides.

The AF definitely needs a new trainer, but I don't think any focus should go towards teaching AR in UPT (looking at you Lockheed and KAI).

a reply to: justwanttofly

They're going to use the same platform as Red Air against the fifth Gen stuff, so they'll use IFR for that and advanced pilot training stuff.

a reply to: Zaphod58

For someone not so knowledgable in that field, I was surprised they would go through the trouble (building another plane from scratch(?is it?)). Now that I looked up some costs, numbers and reading what was written down here, it makes perfect sense.

Now I ask myself the following. Somehow difficult to formulate but I hope you get the drift:

If you are going to become a pilot, it makes sense you train on lighter/cheaper/more handsome aircraft when you never flew before. Is there any plane in service that´s not intended as a trianing plane, but can be jumped in from the simulator without the need for a special training plane before? I mean at some point you simply have to get behind the stick.

Maybe a weird and difficult question to answer but I´m curious about that.
Thank you for your input so far

Edit: I mean an aircraft that will be in some kind of combat zone.
Or to rephrase my question:

Are there pilots out there that only flew with their machines they use in combat/combat simulation?
For example "I flew F16 but nothing else in my life, not even a crop duster"

a reply to: verschickter

Yes and no. No in that regardless of what they end up flying, all military pilots undergo basic flight training. Transport pilots use something like the T-1, which is based off a business jet. Fighter pilots go with the T-38.

Yes in that there are no trainer F-22s, A-10s, or F-35s. That means after they start training in them they go straight from the simulator to solo flight in active jets.

we start out when we're young in a Cessna 150 or 172 or a piper j3 cub.
get 80 hours then it's multi engine skills...the it gets serious....instrument rating....then the cry goes out.....get jets...pure jet is the next league. pitch-outs and fighter manouvers then send the stick and throttle skilled ones into gen5 or cargo ....try not to get fat or old or lose eyesight

a reply to: Zaphod58
Now you got me confused. I thought they are are building a F-35 trainer aircraft to learn controls and everything?
Or do you mean "as of now" because logic tells me that they could not because there was no trainer aviable.

Sorry, english is not my first language :-/

a reply to: verschickter

This trainer will be used to train pilots on the sensors and some of the systems used on the F-35, but isn't an F-35.

Think of it as being a formula one driver. You put the instruments in your street car, so you get used to reading them and how they work, but you wouldn't put the car in a race.

They're building an aircraft that can simulate the sensors of an F-35, and can maneuver like an F-35, but they wouldn't take it into combat because it's not an F-35.

a reply to: Zaphod58
Yes I got that. You must think I am an idiot
No, jokes aside

I was just confused by that comment
I´m pretty sure it´s me but those two quotes sound contradicting, that´s why I asked again.

Yes in that there are no trainer F-22s, A-10s, or F-35s. That means after they start training in them they go straight from the simulator to solo flight in active jets.

= There are no trainers for those NOW. When they start training in them (on simulator) they go straight to solo flights in active jets (F22, A-10, F35). I read it like they train on it and because there is no trainer now, they will train in F35s for example.

Not just the F-35, but the F-22 and future fighters as well. They'll integrate the systems as best as they can simulate for the aircraft they're going to fly afterwards.

= They are building a trainer aircraft and integrate the systems so they can train on that.

Conclusion:
There is no trainer aircraft for the F35 so as of now, they go straight from simulator to F35.
They will not use another old aircraft to train, until the "official" trainer aircraft is finished, they will take the risk and train directly on F35.

Bear in mind, I do not know if they retrain for example F16 pilots to F35 or if the vast majority are freshmans. Although, I would assume they do not sit a freshman who never flew, into a F35.

There is no trainer version of those aircraft. If you look at the F-15, and F-16, there are two seat versions of both of them that are used for type training.

A pilot learning to fly those will fly the T-38 for initial training, then fly the two seat version of whichever they go to, with an instructor pilot flying in the other seat, plus simulator training. That way if the student gets in trouble the instructor is there to help them.

The F-22, and F-35 pilots on the other hand, fly the T-38, then go to classes and simulator training. Their first flight in those aircraft is alone, because there is no two seat trainer version of them. There won't be either.

The trainer that is being built won't be the same as flying an F-35, it will only teach them how to work with all the information they'll see in the F-35 cockpit.

a reply to: Zaphod58
Alright that answered my questions, current F-35 pilots fly the T-38 as of now but will get their F35 customized trainer plane later. Thank you for your patience explaining that to me.