So atheists, what if you are wrong

originally posted by: borntowatch

Well God is the judge, He will judge who is lying and He knows the truth.

For mine I think that people are fooled into belief by their self centred desires.

Self centered desires such as wanting a life after death? wanting a 'god' figure to look after them and provide for them?

Did you just throw yourself under the bus?

I try not to lie, you may think I do but I face Him, your opinion though valid to you, not very important in my life.
Once I hit reply you and your opinion wont exist in my life.

Yep youre blinkered presence on these boards displays as much, yet your posts (especially in the origins and creationism forum) show a deeply rooted level of dishonesty despite what you claim here.

I love this quote

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion however satisfying and reassuring.

-Carl Sagan From a deluded man about his own delusions

Sagan never presented a universe that was 'satisfying and reassuring'.....that's the theists domain.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

If I am wrong about my belief in God and you are right then nothing will happen to me BUT if I am right then you are going to hell.

For someone who is willing to gamble their eternity away that fast is foolish to me.

Well, I got news for you: with over 4200 religions in the world and with as many Gods out there proclaiming to be the 'true one', you and me are both probably going to hell.

I only wish I could choose which hell.... I want to spend eternity in a hell full of bikers, rock music and good food... I'm just trying to figure out which god to upset so that I'm sent there!

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: notmyrealname

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: notmyrealname
We F'ing die and never have to hear from you morons again!

WOW. That doesn't sound like the idea of any religion to me. Nor the ideas of a nice human being.

Oh, I am so sorry not to fit perfectly into the shape that you have determined all humans to fit into. Possibly, I do not meet your standards of what a supposedly nice human being is….

Sue me.

"We F'ing die and never have to hear from you morons again!"

WHAT religious or faithful person would say this? Would the Pope say this? Would any priest or pastor or minister you know just come out and SAY that? So, ya, I don't think a nice person would say that or think that. It's absolutely horrendous.

Actually you sound like a nice person in your posts (a little naive sometimes) so I do not want to have any lengthy discussion about my statement more than the following:

I am, in my opinion, a very nice and caring person. I feel loved and I love my family & friends. I an not religious in any sense of the word however I have been exposed to it for a good portion of my life.

I am simply very very tired of hearing from people that want to force their brand of delusion down my throat. What you saw in my post was not hate nor malice, it was exhaustion and frustration.

You seem like a nice person and I wanted to clear that up.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
I can only surmise that God has no intentions of ever restoring an amputee's lost limb. In all of human history, I don't doubt their were plenty of people who fit all the other requirements for having prayers answered.

Prove, then. What's the source of your certainty?

Great. The ultimate point of the amputee argument is this. There are no miracles from God. Show me a miracle that can't be explained rationally. Fantastic things like raising the dead (but not their lost limbs) or other miracles don't happen. Where are all the Christians doing like Christ? Performing miracles through him and in his name?

And the answer to it is that there are no things that cannot be explained rationally. If God brought someone's back from dead, you cannot rule out catalepsy. You cannot even rule out that the person was trully dead to begin with. That it was not a ruse. If God healed someone's limb, you cannot rule out a mysterious medical treatment you are not aware of, you cannot rule out a magical parlour trick. In fact, I just gave you an example of a man whose finger was regrown using stem cell treatment. It was not reattached. It was regrown anew, nail and digital prints included. So it can be done by medicine. Why don't we grow the limbs of the amputees ourselves, I will leave for the Big Pharma conspiracy guys to explain.

Truth is, having sucessfully rationalized the greatest miracle of all, which is life itself, by raising from the dead the ancient greek phylosophy of evolution through adding a thin veener of scientific legitimacy to it, a fortiori you can rationalize anything else.

I have read that fingertips can and do grow back. Very interesting to be sure. Proof of a miracle? Not in my opinion. But the implications from a medical standpoint if/when further researched may lead to some phenomenal results.

My point exactly. The argument from amputees claim that such miracle would be undeniable. It wouldn't. It can be done outside of a miracle. Even if we can't do it ourselves currently, it is most likely well within the reach of our medicine, and we may even see it ourselves within our lifetimes.

a reply to: Leahn

Would you care to provide "proof" that your Bible God is real?

Lots and lots of us waiting for that. Irrefutable proof. (And, by the way, I am an agnostic - open to acceptance if such a thing is proven.)

As for amputees - a child recently got two hand transplants. DOCTORS did it.
Human doctors.

Wow, you are deeply indoctrinated.
(Oh, and "The Bible" IS NOT PROOF.)

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: borntowatch

Well God is the judge, He will judge who is lying and He knows the truth.

For mine I think that people are fooled into belief by their self centred desires.

Self centered desires such as wanting a life after death? wanting a 'god' figure to look after them and provide for them?

Did you just throw yourself under the bus?

I try not to lie, you may think I do but I face Him, your opinion though valid to you, not very important in my life.
Once I hit reply you and your opinion wont exist in my life.

Yep youre blinkered presence on these boards displays as much, yet your posts (especially in the origins and creationism forum) show a deeply rooted level of dishonesty despite what you claim here.

I love this quote

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion however satisfying and reassuring.

-Carl Sagan From a deluded man about his own delusions

Sagan never presented a universe that was 'satisfying and reassuring'.....that's the theists domain.

Clearly you are not a theologian or have studied the written word

There is no promise of happiness on earth for christians.
little hint, Jesus died.

I want justice, just not for me, hence why I am a christian, yeah it has a note of hypocrisy, no denying

As for my beliefs on creation, another forum, another argument.
I believe I am being sincere and honest.

We disagree, get over it.

Christ never presented a universe that was 'satisfying and reassuring'.....that's the promise.

a reply to: borntowatch

Im a Christian and I'm gonna turn this around on you: what if they are RIGHT?

In this world there is always an opposite. White-black, left-right, man-woman, atheist-Christian, earth-water, do-don't, go-stay, yes-no, walk-ride, cars-planes....etc.

So...even as a Christian...Im asking you...what if they are RIGHT?

a reply to: Agartha

I only wish I could choose which hell.... I want to spend eternity in a hell full of bikers, rock music and good food... I'm just trying to figure out which god to upset so that I'm sent there!

A smoking lounge, and an open bar would be good, too. Also, outdoors areas with pretty flowers, and deep forests with sparkling brooks and soaring pines that smell like vanilla....(Ponderosa)

Lots of joke-telling (stand up comics? AWESOME!) and perfect weather.

You and me, soul-sister. See ya there.
The 'pious' can have the angel harp music and hang out on clouds....no thanks and worship forever. No change for anyone!!

a reply to: Leahn

If I have to point out to you the atrocities done in the name of religions, then I'm not sure what planet you're from. Witch burning, killing 'heretics,' just to name a couple things. Oh- uhm...let's not forget the Crusades.

I wouldn't associate myself with a group with so bloody a history. Cults are dangerous. Especially when they grow to billions of members.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Leahn

Would you care to provide "proof" that your Bible God is real?

Lots and lots of us waiting for that. Irrefutable proof. (And, by the way, I am an agnostic - open to acceptance if such a thing is proven.)

No. It is off-topic. Multiple threads exist on the subject already.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Leahn
As for amputees - a child recently got two hand transplants. DOCTORS did it.
Human doctors.

Wow, you are deeply indoctrinated.
(Oh, and "The Bible" IS NOT PROOF.)

I don't really understand how you agreeing with me is somehow an indicative that I am deeply indoctrinated.

a reply to: borntowatch

I don't come to ATS to bash religious people. I don't care what people believe, so long as they don't expect non-believers to live by the rules of their god and their holy book.

Amongst my main interest are religion, mythology and ancient history. I like reading about ideas and philosophies and have formed a picture that 'does' me - at least for now. If a better idea comes along I'll happily consider that.

For the purposes of your question - which I've assumed means a non-belief in the christian god - this is how I imagine it will go in the afterlife if I'm wrong and get hauled up before this god to explain myself:

God: Oi you, regardless that you've tried to live a blameless and exemplary life based on your own misguided beliefs and ethics, explain to me why I shouldn't consign you to eternal Hell for being wrong and not believing in me.

Me: Well, god, it's your own fault. You've insisted that you're the one and only jealous god and you don't want people worshipping other gods before you, but you've given us so much choice.

I know you gave us free will and all that, but why did you let so many gods and religious ideas proliferate all over the globe with nothing to tell us really which were the most authentic? How were we supposed to know?

I mean, look what you did with your free will. With all your omniscience and omnipresence you only manifested in the ancient Middle East and buggered off before belief in you spread to Europe. It's a bit much to demand that everyone believe in you based on a poorly translated ancient book that's been argued about for centuries. Some scholars can't even decide if there was only one god - you - in Genesis or if you were a collective.

You could have been a bit more generous with the clues. I mean, what's the answer? How many angels CAN you get on the head of a pin?

God: Sod off - go the afterlife you were expecting. Even Old Nick doesn't deserve the likes of you.


ETA - I've just read this thread from the beginning and found some extremely profound posts that deal with the subject with far more reverence. Sorry, for repeating issues that have been raised already and with far more thought.

a reply to: Leahn

I don't really understand how you agreeing with me is somehow an indicative that I am deeply indoctrinated.

The kid's hands were previously attached to someone else, and then attached to his stumps by human beings. The hands did not 'miraculously' grow back overnight.

originally posted by: Hushabye
a reply to: Leahn

If I have to point out to you the atrocities done in the name of religions, then I'm not sure what planet you're from. Witch burning, killing 'heretics,' just to name a couple things. Oh- uhm...let's not forget the Crusades.

I wouldn't associate myself with a group with so bloody a history. Cults are dangerous. Especially when they grow to billions of members.

The Crusades are the reason why you are not speaking Arab right now and praying for Allah lest you be beheaded. Whether one should consider Western Civilization achievements compared to what was produced by the Caliphate to be 'detrimental to civilization' is left as an exercise to the reader. Truth is, Europe would not exist today without the Crusades. Instead, they would be part of the Ottoman Empire. Without Europe, there would be no British Empire, and without the British Empire, there would be no United States of América, at least none with any resemblance to what exists today. So, you are welcome.

Witch burns were never a religious 'thing'. It was both a secular and a religious problem, with the Church itself many times fighting against it while secular authorities fought for it. To blame it solely on Christians is naive at best.

The role of the Inquisitions is fairly overstated by anti-religious propaganda. Less people died of its trials than died of bicycle acidentes in a similar period, and yet I see no one rallying against bicycles as bloody dangers.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Leahn
The kid's hands were previously attached to someone else, and then attached to his stumps by human beings. The hands did not 'miraculously' grow back overnight.

My point exactly. The argument from amputees is an atheist anti-Christian argument that says that healing an amputee would be an undeniable proof that miracles happen. And I keep telling them that it wouldn't be because it is well within the ability of our medicine to do it. You are not disagreeing with me. We are both saying the same thing. We are both saying that healing of an amputee is not something that is solely the result of miracles. It is not and wouldn't be undeniable proof of the existence of God, despite the atheist claims that it would.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs

A smoking lounge, and an open bar would be good, too. Also, outdoors areas with pretty flowers, and deep forests with sparkling brooks and soaring pines that smell like vanilla....(Ponderosa)

Lots of joke-telling (stand up comics? AWESOME!) and perfect weather.

You and me, soul-sister. See ya there.
The 'pious' can have the angel harp music and hang out on clouds....no thanks and worship forever. No change for anyone!!

ahahaha yes! All of the above! I would also add: where women are free to live their lives as they choose without being controlled or judged!

See you there, girl!!

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: borntowatch

I haven't seen any non-believers acting in any way hypocritical. The thread's concept is based off of Pascal's Wager, and that concept is extremely flawed, as represented by my original topic you copied.

You're acting as if you've just composed this big "GOTCHA!!!!" moment, when it's pretty obvious you don't even understand what you're copying either. I mean, just look at the last sentences in your OP...

So atheists, what if you are wrong

Turn the tables, play your game, ask yourself the same question instead of your constant judgement you accuse others of

Your ignorance is showing

Slink away, borntowatch... slink away.....

You called believers out about being wrong in choosing their deity

You still completely misunderstand the whole concept of the original topic. The title is a display on how Pascal's Wager is an inferior argument, it has nothing to do with actually saying that theists are wrong.

originally posted by: borntowatch
I just calling out the same tune, just saying what if the atheist was wrong.

The original topic's argument already says "What if atheists are wrong" in it! the whole topic is based off that feeble argument. Pascal's wager is the foundation of the Original Topic in response to another thread, You've just created the same argument that I was responding to in the first place.

So much for reading comprehension.

originally posted by: borntowatch
Nothing different to you at all, just the context

Let's see, shal we? This is the sole focus of my original thread, and a direct quote from the OP.

This is the claim made by a ton of religious individuals worldwide:

If you're right and god doesn't exist, if we believers still believe by the time we die.... oh well.

If the faithful are right and god does exist at the end of it all .... sucks to be you.

All you've succeeded in this one is that you've just made the same question I was already responding to. How this topic isn't closed already is beyond my understanding.

originally posted by: borntowatch
Its all about perspective, its about faith, belief. You choose yours me mine.

We could all be wrong.

You act as if you've achieved something here that the original topic didn't. I wasn't arguing that Atheists were right at all. The totality of the argument was to show that Pascal's Wager is a feeble one. If anything, the responses in this topic just back up my own arguments in the Original. Not that you seem to be able to understand that anyway.

originally posted by: borntowatch
Slink away, why? Thats a strange thing to say.
Are you that powerful that I should.
You have the charge of the Valkyrie playing in the background.

I suppose it was my mistake that my last post would clear the fog of misunderstanding for you. You really still don't understand the purpose of the original topic, do you?

originally posted by: borntowatch
This war is all in your head.

Haha, no, it's just your ignorance about what you think you're trying to show.

originally posted by: borntowatch
Slink away, think about your choice of words.
All you want to do is dominate me, again thats really sad you act that way.

Hardly. All I want to do is show that you've misunderstood the concepts of the original topic. Apparently that is too difficult for you to achieve.

a reply to: Leahn

Pretty sure the atheists are asking for an amputee to spontaneously (like, overnight, but better if right in front of your eyes like on sci-fi movies) regrow a missing limb.




Or, for my format typos to be fixed instantaneously.....without spell-check or smart-guess software.
LOL!!!

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
Do you think that, if you were granted omnipotence and omniscience and millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than [what we have now]?

What if we are here not to make the world a better place but to further the development of our souls?
What if the development of our souls over millions of years makes the world a better place?

I am not religious in the typical sense but I do believe in a higher state of existence and that we incarnate here in the 3D duality realm to experience what this realm has to offer to our souls. But I think the dogma associated with the main religions is a ruse, love is the only truth.

a reply to: mclarenmp4

What if we are here not to make the world a better place but to further the development of our souls?
What if the development of our souls over millions of years makes the world a better place?

Actually, that's exactly what I believe!
I believe in reincarnation, and a journey of our very essence (soul) in and out of different 'realms.'
We are here for reasons:
to learn
to teach
to help

It's a self-paced study program.

That's my sincere heart-felt and honest opinion.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Exactly what I believe. I don't believe in judgement as the OP and the bible suggests.
I believe that our souls resonate and when it's coming from a place of love, compassion or empathy then your soul will vibrate at a higher frequency.
It doesn't matter if you are athiest, christian, muslim or any other religious belief as long as you live your life from a place of love then when we move on to our next existence we will incarnate in the realm that corresponds to our souls vibration.
So if you have lived a hateful existence then you will incarnate in a lower vibrational realm where concepts such as hell etc.. come from. it's not the source that condemns you, it's your own state of being that condemns you to the lower realms.
That's why i have no issue with same sex marriage because anything that comes from a place of love then it's a beautiful thing. Marriage is the union of the souls and the souls are sexless so it's stands to me that whether you are in a male-female, male-male or female-female relationship, then that union is valid.