So atheists, what if you are wrong

a reply to: borntowatch

While I may not come out and say it directly, in my head generally speaking, I admit I do have thoughts such as, "God doesnt exist and you are stupid for believing this stupid nonsense". After the time I have put into questioning the foundations of my faith, and subjecting those beliefs to scrutiny, it can be frustrating to see other people not doing the same. But I understand that people live different lives than I do, with their own experiences and opinions. I don't necessarily think people are actually stupid for believing in a god.

I'd want to talk to the person to get to know them a little bit. Learn more about the reasons they believe. I find that some have better reasons than others. There are tons of people, religious and non religious who came to those positions for some reason. I'll scrutinize their reasons and person, then form my opinion about them.

Certainly there are a lot of hateful people. But I also feel that there is a tendency for things to feel hateful when they may not be, and for people to get caught up in a passionate subject. The reality is though, that either there is a god, there are multiple gods, or there are no gods.

How does one go about finding out the truth? When most, if not all, religions and cults claim their god or gods are the true gods.. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. As of yet, all the evidence put forth as evidence of a god, any god, has fallen short of conclusive. Often they are full of fallacies, etc. They don't stand up to scrutiny.

So what if I'm wrong?

I suppose I should figure out my favorite deity from antiquity and put all my faith into him or her, and what they stand for.

Or I could remain comfortable in knowing that in life, I tried to believe as few false things as possible. If I die, and a god that advocated for truth, got pissed at me for not singling him out and believing in him, without question, and in the face of my current understanding of things, the result of objective, critical, skeptical, analytical thinking...

Boo! I would then believe there really is a jealous insecure overlord after all.

The thing with atheists, is that if we're shown proof of something, we'll believe it.

Religion has been proving itself a detriment to society for thousands of years...yet the religious cling regardless.

originally posted by: borntowatch
This recycled argument has recently popped up in another thread and instead of derailing that topic, I figured it was best to make it a star of it's own thread alone.

This is the claim made by a ton of atheists individuals worldwide:
God doesnt exist and you are stupid for believing this stupid nonsense

So essentially atheists don't believe and actively propagate their faith in unbelief with a constant spiel of irrelevant same same threads..But obviously atheists dont know everything and may be wrong.
They are possibly walking into judgement add leading others into judgement as well

Funny how atheists christian and religious, non religious are all hateful

So atheists, what if you are wrong


Turn the tables, play your game, ask yourself the same question instead of your constant judgement you accuse others of

There are aggressive atheists and non aggressive atheists. Just like in any topic. I have not seen all atheists state people are stupid for believing in a higher power. That is ridiculous.

If they are wrong, apparently the Christian God 'believes in them' so doesn't matter.

My Goddess believes in them, so doesn't matter either way. I have difficulty understanding the idea of 'What if they are wrong?'

Is that the actual question? Or is it a whiny 'christians are being persecuted' question? There is a difference between the title and the ideas proposed that follow in the OP.

originally posted by: notmyrealname
We F'ing die and never have to hear from you morons again!

WOW. That doesn't sound like the idea of any religion to me. Nor the ideas of a nice human being.

It depends on how "wrong" we are. If we are wrong and god never recovered to be the new testament "I don't need your foreskins" god, we are all screwed. If we are wrong and that wasn't god to begin with, we are all lost. If we are wrong and god thinks 99% of this world is FUBAR....are we really wrong? And is it really a god for creating it?

Ultimately, "wrong" needs to be defined. Frankly I think it's irrelevant at this point. A god that can't show its face is a god I can't embrace.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

originally posted by: Hushabye
The thing with atheists, is that if we're shown proof of something, we'll believe it.

Religion has been proving itself a detriment to society for thousands of years...yet the religious cling regardless.

Religion is a great comfort to many. It requires faith as there really isn't any proof. Faith is difficult to really have. It is suspension of disbelief and goes against logic on all counts.

However, if there is a group of people requiring proof to believe, that doesn't sound unreasonable. People require proof of many things before devoting much of their time, life and energy to it.

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: notmyrealname
We F'ing die and never have to hear from you morons again!

WOW. That doesn't sound like the idea of any religion to me. Nor the ideas of a nice human being.

Oh, I am so sorry not to fit perfectly into the shape that you have determined all humans to fit into. Possibly, I do not meet your standards of what a supposedly nice human being is….

Sue me.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: ketsuko

And what could POSSIBLY be the benevolent reason for allowing this to happen, rather than just giving your "creation" the nuts and brains to keep their act together.......?????

Choice is always superior to no choice. God have you the nuts and brains to keep your act together, as well as to not to, if you choose. Only in na atheist world, benevolence would be to give you the ability to reason, but to deny you the capacity to act upon your own reasoning.

WHAT TYRANNICAL torturer and abuser would DO THAT?
Huh?

Who would do that?
And to what end?

Any father or mother, really. Try preventing your child from acting in any possible way that might be considered bad. In fact, he should not act, do, talk or even think anything without clearing with you first. He should make no decision whatsoever without you clearing with it first. Tell him he has to do it for his entire life. If anyone questions you, tell them that only a tyrannical torturer and abuser would do otherwise, since not doing it means your children might potentially do something 'bad'. In fact, you should treat your children very much like a living doll or toy, with no agency of his own, since this is the benevolente thing to do, according to the atheist view.

Tell me how that works out for you.

originally posted by: calstorm
The problem is, that no matter how hard you try to make yourself believe in something that your mind can't accept as truth, you still can't force your self to believe. I have tried, I desperately wanted to believe. I grew up in church, I went to church as an adult, I prayed and studied the bible. I have spent more time reading the bible than most Christians, yet my mind refuses to accept any of it as fact.

So what if I am wrong? Well, not much I can do about it until I see the evidence at death now can I?

Absolutely correct. I had a...I don't even know what to call it..a moment...where I found faith. I felt it. I still feel it. However, there is nothing better about me nor worse.

There is nothing you can do about it. If reading the bible gives you comfort, read it. If branching out to study other religions gives you comfort and knowledge, do that.

Or none of those things. You just have to be a good person. No more, no less.

a reply to: DuckforcoveR

Wrong is currently subjective anyways.

Personally, I believe as long as someone's god isn't Satan, evil-devil-lead man astray Satan, not this new age Satan of "enlightenment" that everyone talks about...

Even if it's no God, we are probably all gonna be meeting in the Seven Heavens so long as we try to do good, not "subjective" good, but the best we can, and if our hearts are pure in intention, we should all be alright.

There are more important things to worry about than if an atheist/agnostic decides to convert imo.

originally posted by: notmyrealname

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: notmyrealname
We F'ing die and never have to hear from you morons again!

WOW. That doesn't sound like the idea of any religion to me. Nor the ideas of a nice human being.

Oh, I am so sorry not to fit perfectly into the shape that you have determined all humans to fit into. Possibly, I do not meet your standards of what a supposedly nice human being is….

Sue me.

It sounded quite mean to me. I didn't demand you fit into anything.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Leahn

Funny, the two writers were back to back in the text. I finished Pascal and went on to Russell.

Sorry, I agree with Russell.
"You can't make me," comes to mind.

You can make me SAY IT, but you can't MAKE ME BELIEVE.

If I misunderstood your post, my apologies.

You are free to agree with Russell. Doesn't change the fact that his argument is no more than an Argument from Incredulity. "I can't believe it, therefore it is false" is not really a solid argument.

originally posted by: borntowatch
This recycled argument has recently popped up in another thread and instead of derailing that topic, I figured it was best to make it a star of it's own thread alone.

This is the claim made by a ton of atheists individuals worldwide:
God doesnt exist and you are stupid for believing this stupid nonsense

So essentially atheists don't believe and actively propagate their faith in unbelief with a constant spiel of irrelevant same same threads..But obviously atheists dont know everything and may be wrong.
They are possibly walking into judgement add leading others into judgement as well

Funny how atheists christian and religious, non religious are all hateful

So atheists, what if you are wrong


Turn the tables, play your game, ask yourself the same question instead of your constant judgement you accuse others of

How do you say that all atheists are hateful? You would need to back that up somehow. Again, your OP does not match the title.

a reply to: Leahn

Any father or mother, really. Try preventing your child from acting in any possible way that might be considered bad. In fact, he should not act, do, talk or even think anything without clearing with you first. He should make no decision whatsoever without you clearing with it first. Tell him he has to do it for his entire life.

Exactly right.
It's some dictator, helicopter parent who hovers all the time and keeps score.

News flash: WE ARE NOT LITTLE CHILDREN. None of us posting on this thread, or this forum, or this site are little children....
some of you like to imagine that, I guess -

I raised two kids. Now in their 20s. I never threatened them with hell, or held their feet to a fire, or blamed them for all the mistakes they made. Some parents do, though.



Lyrics:

"Perfect"

Sometimes is never quite enough
If you're flawless, then you'll win my love
Don't forget to win first place
Don't forget to keep that smile on your face

Be a good boy
Try a little harder
You've got to measure up
And make me prouder

How long before you screw it up
How many times do I have to tell you to hurry up
With everything I do for you
The least you can do is keep quiet

Be a good girl
You've gotta try a little harder
That simply wasn't good enough
To make us proud

I'll live through you
I'll make you what I never was
If you're the best, then maybe so am I
Compared to him compared to her
I'm doing this for your own damn good
You'll make up for what I blew
What's the problem...why are you crying

Be a good boy
Push a little farther now
That wasn't fast enough
To make us happy
We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect

originally posted by: Hushabye
The thing with atheists, is that if we're shown proof of something, we'll believe it.

Religion has been proving itself a detriment to society for thousands of years...yet the religious cling regardless.

No, you wouldn't. Richard Dawkins declared that if God appeared in front of him, revealing Himself, he would dismiss it as he being delusional, instead. At least, he was candid and sincere about it.

And as for your latter statement, you are free to attempt to prove it, which you won't, since it is not even remotely true.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

You are an example of logic. And caring. Whoever started this whole thread will not really like that. Good song, too

a reply to: Leahn

You are free to agree with Russell.

Wow! Really? Thanks!

Doesn't change the fact that his argument is no more than an Argument from Incredulity.

I disagree. It is an argument from logic, reason, and available 'evidence.' Common sense.

But even if it does fit your 'argumentum' category, so what? Does that automatically make Pascal "right"?
No. It doesn't. Nope!

At least Russell was man enough to take a stand based on SOUND REASONING.

originally posted by: notmyrealname

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: notmyrealname
We F'ing die and never have to hear from you morons again!

WOW. That doesn't sound like the idea of any religion to me. Nor the ideas of a nice human being.

Oh, I am so sorry not to fit perfectly into the shape that you have determined all humans to fit into. Possibly, I do not meet your standards of what a supposedly nice human being is….

Sue me.

"We F'ing die and never have to hear from you morons again!"

WHAT religious or faithful person would say this? Would the Pope say this? Would any priest or pastor or minister you know just come out and SAY that? So, ya, I don't think a nice person would say that or think that. It's absolutely horrendous.

a reply to: Leahn

Using Dawkins as a bench mark for atheism is the same as using Fred Phelps as a bench mark for Christians...

The guy is a loser.

a reply to: borntowatch

Perhaps, instead of recycling this stuff which no-one can ever get a satisfactory resolution agreed to, we should ask that those who see no reason in the faith of others, should do an experiment in faith for themselves.

Without telling anyone else, just between yourself and whatever you assume God may be, ask God to forgive any bad choices you have made in the past and to guide you in future. You don't even have to ask out loud. If God is there and is as portrayed then you will get heard.

You may not even mean it that much, but ask anyway. Repeat it daily, after all, only takes a sec.

Then look at what happens over subsequent days.

If you see some sort of a change, pick up a Bible (one in plain English using modern speech like "The Message" Bible would be good) and find out if it makes sense from the new perspective. Perhaps rail at God over injustices & etc, but open a channel of communication.

If there's no change, then nothing lost.