So atheists, what if you are wrong

originally posted by: Leahn
Prove that it is fantastical.

People being spontaneously healed or cured without apparent explanation is fantastical.
www.thefreedictionary.com...

Otherwise, it is just your bias showing.

Do tell, what is my bias?

Someone claiming to witness something doesn't mean their claims are true. Also doesn't mean their claims are false. This is why witnesses are cross-examined.

That's exactly what I've been saying. Also that other forms of evidence, such as physical evidence like documentation, are important for finding the truth as well. They go a long way to corroborate witness testimony.

Unless you are an atheist, then all claims you disagree with are always false by default, no need to investigate further.

Wrong.

So, it is a guilty by association fallacy. You have no evidence that he is lying, and no reason to believe that he is lying, other than your own prejudice against religious people. I wonder if with the recent scandals of fraud on scientific fields, if you say the same about scientists.

I can tell you this much, you aren't increasing my faith in the religious, in any way.

And this is the last time I'm going to try and explain this to you...

I have already stated multiple times that just because there are frauds in religion (as there are frauds everywhere) does not necessarily mean someone with a miraculous story is lying. You can't see why I approach miraculous claims with a grain of salt, because of all the frauds? And it isn't only because of frauds. It also has to do with the amount of information available. I lean towards natural, rational explanations, when it's clear something seemingly miraculous did indeed happen. Why you may ask (again)?

Because I've yet to see one verifiable documented case of these miraculous occurrences.

Any and all other evidence offered would be promptly dismissed, as well.

Don't presume to know me. Why don't you actually offer up some other evidence, and we can consider it?

You are biased. I am not.

Could have fooled me.

I made no claims whatsoever about the story. Whether it is true or false is of no consideration to me whatsoever.

False. You have made it abundantly clear that you believe in these miraculous healings and that the stories alone are evidence to you that they actually happened.

The only claim I made was that no matter what evidence was offered, atheists would find an excuse to deem in invalid and dismiss it.

False. Us atheists and agnostics have already explained this.

So far, I was not proven wrong as no atheist would even consider it as evidence, much less examine it.

Absolutely false. We have examined what has been presented. We have explained why it's not conclusive evidence.

No amount of evidence will ever be enough to confirm it to you,

Again, false.

yet you keep saying 'just show evidence and I will believe.' With the second breath you say there is no way to confirm it.

That's right, show me the evidence. The kind of evidence that can be confirmed or denied.

Sure, but that's not my point. My point is that eye witness testimony is considered evidence even in court, but atheists will proclaim that eye witness testimony is not evidence. None of your replies so far have many any attempt to correct this wrong statement.

Ok. I understand what you're getting at and why there may have been some confusion. When I say eye witness testimony is not evidence, I mean to say that it is not always the most reliable. Is it evidence in the sense they have something to share which may or may not be true or completely accurate? Sure. It's evidence of something.

But it is by no means evidence of the proof positive caliber. Thus I take it with a grain of salt and hope for some corroborating evidence. Such as, documentation of a tumor vanishing over night, for example.

I am by no means trying to wave away eyewitnesses as loons or liars. I don't think chr0naut is pulling my leg or mentally delusional. I believe he believes prayer was answered from a divine source. I believe there is a more rational explanation. But I don't have enough information to know one way or the other. Maybe he would even say the same thing? Either way without conclusive evidence both him and I will attribute the event to what we personally believe most likely.

Yes. Because doctors, even today, will accept "alternative" medicine, even when they are proven to work. My father is only walking today due to acupuncture, when all the doctors told him that the only way he could ever walk again was by undergoing surgery to replace his kneecap, and even then he would only walk with a cane. Yet, he walks without one. To this day, I haven't met a doctor who would advise acupuncture.

Yes, I am sure it would be a very very big deal, and the doctors wouldn't treat it with derision and scorn. Riiight.

I like how you keep avoiding answering why there isn't a single documented case in all of modern medicine. Instead just keep making vast broadbrushed assumptions about how the medical and scientific community would approach miracles. Also note that it would be in the interest of the religious community to confirm such miracles and plenty of doctors and scientists are believers.

So again, in all of modern medicine, where are the documented case studies?

Problem is that you cannot find proof of any religion. You also cannot find any counter-proof. That's part of the game. The Bible says that Satan was allowed to seed such mess in order to weed out those without true faith. I guess you lost.

Different thread subject, but I'm actually fairly confident specific gods and religions can be disproven. But that's just me.

originally posted by: Leahn
He was wrong. Faith and reason walk hand in hand, being both sides of the same coin.

No they don't and no they aren't. But you are welcome to show me otherwise.

a reply to: peter vlar

I must say in my defense that a personal experience is of higher evidential weight that something written and even notarized by a stack of 'experts'.

Yes, I could have been deceived but who then was doing the deceiving?

The situation was that the car (actually a Holden Ute truck) had run into a cattle loading ramp. One of the wooden beams had penetrated the car window, and struck the top of bench seat near to the drivers shoulder, pushing the seat top out through the back of the cab. The driver shoulders had followed the seat back but his head had struck the frame of the rear window and was driven forward on to his chest. The first impression of the paramedic was "he's broken his neck". From then on the rescue job proceeded with the assumption that he had a spinal injury and he was carefully cut from the wreck and immobilized for transit to hospital.

There was little doubt in my mind that there was a genuine spinal injury. The doctor, paramedic and others present all seemed to concur. But no x-rays were taken as the recovery occurred before they could be done.

The fact that the driver walked away from the hospital and especially the timing of his recovery was miraculous, no other way to describe it.

You will notice that no-one went about collecting evidence after the fact. Validation was not a requirement for anyone present. I suspect that such occurs in the majority of such cases where something amazing happens but no-one gives a @#$%^$% about collecting evidence.

I think it is possible to reject nearly everything if you wish to. Karl Popper based his concept of empirical falsification on this fact.

Face it that you have a prejudice to disbelieve and I one to believe. Let us agree to disagree, being honest to our selves.

here is a simple but powerful thought for atheists. Just entertain the thought that God is real. If God is real, he is the creator of the universe, made everything right? That's what God is, the creator of everything, the stars, planets, our Earth. Made the trees, flowers, every insect, animal, just everything right. He created you, me,every person who has ever lived. This means God created everything, but there is infact one place God cannot be, its within you. Its a choice, God is in everything, except the people who choose to shut God out.

a reply to: chr0naut

Weird how theists always attribute the miraculous recovery/survival to their god, but never the conditions that put the victim in the situation to begin with......their god always arrives after the fact like superman, to save the day, despite being all knowing/all powerful etc.....

a reply to: socksrocks do I have to call it God or can I call it the Tao?

originally posted by: Prezbo369
a reply to: chr0naut

Weird how theists always attribute the miraculous recovery/survival to their god, but never the conditions that put the victim in the situation to begin with......their god always arrives after the fact like superman, to save the day, despite being all knowing/all powerful etc.....

The car crash was caused by a loose battery terminal which came off and caused the headlights to black out while the car was at speed. The terminal was loose because the car owner had just replaced the battery with a charged one because his alternator wasn't working properly. He had forgotten to tighten the bolt on the battery terminal.

It's weird how an atheist attributes to God what are clearly the consequences of human actions and the laws of physics.

To suggest God doesn't exist and then allocate blame to God seems to me to be the pinnacle of defective reasoning.

To allow free will mandates that choices must be available and that there are discernible consequences to the action of those choices.

The world, seen by experience at our level, is an immense groping, an immense search, an immense attack; its progress can take place only at the expense of many failures, of many wounds. Sufferers of whatever species are the expression of this stern but noble condition. They are not useless and dwarfed. They are simply paying for the forward march and triumph of all. They are casualties, fallen on the field of honour. "

- Teilhart de Chardin (credited with being one of the originators of the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis).

originally posted by: socksrocks
here is a simple but powerful thought for atheists. Just entertain the thought that God is real. If God is real, he is the creator of the universe, made everything right? That's what God is, the creator of everything, the stars, planets, our Earth. Made the trees, flowers, every insect, animal, just everything right. He created you, me,every person who has ever lived. This means God created everything, but there is infact one place God cannot be, its within you. Its a choice, God is in everything, except the people who choose to shut God out.

Here's a simple and powerful reality for you to entertain. Atheists aren't born that way. In fact, every atheist and agnostic I know was born into a religious family and came to find that reality doesn't equate with theology all on their own. Often from realizing the myriad of contradictions in the scriptures of whatever faith they were born into and then realizing that if there are a multitude of different faiths, including 10's of thousands of sects of Christianity alone, that god or gods are doing it wrong if they can't get everyone on the same page.

Everything you ask them to look at to see god(s) is something they have already explored throughout their lives prior to coming to the conclusion that their indoctrination might not be all that it claims to be.

The fact of the matter is, religion is a matter of geography. You aren't born with an innate sense of god any more than a person is born an atheist or agnostic. The religious aspect is a taught phenomena and entirely dependent on where you are born. Atheism and agnosticism are a search for truth just as much as religion is supposed to be, they just demand evidence as opposed to blindly following a tautology that was thrust upon them by their families with no say in the matter.

originally posted by: chr0naut
The car crash was caused by a loose battery terminal which came off and caused the headlights to black out while the car was at speed. The terminal was loose because the car owner had just replaced the battery with a charged one because his alternator wasn't working properly. He had forgotten to tighten the bolt on the battery terminal.

And after watching all that its only then that you think a god intervened at the very last second to save the person.....just like a super hero....for dramatic effect?

It's weird how an atheist attributes to God what are clearly the consequences of human actions and the laws of physics.

No I attribute all of your tale to 'the consequences of human actions and the laws of physics', it's just you chose to introduce some form of super hero to explain what you couldn't.

To suggest God doesn't exist and then allocate blame to God seems to me to be the pinnacle of defective reasoning.

No defective reasoning would be to accuse an theist of allocating blame to a god....

To allow free will mandates that choices must be available and that there are discernible consequences to the action of those choices.

Lol right, 'discernible consequences' unless you have a superhero friend to save the day?

You're only deceiving yourself.

a reply to: peter vlar

The fact of the matter is, religion is a matter of geography. You aren't born with an innate sense of god any more than a person is born an atheist or agnostic.

The religious aspect is a taught phenomena and entirely dependent on where you are born.

Atheism and agnosticism are a search for truth just as much as religion is supposed to be, they just demand evidence as opposed to blindly following a tautology that was thrust upon them by their families with no say in the matter.

Applause.
I HOPE you got formal applause for that. But you got mine, at least.

a reply to: socksrocks

but there is infact one place God cannot be, its within you. Its a choice, God is in everything, except the people who choose to shut God out.

Hmmmmmm.

Um, NO.....


wait, let me think.......

NO.

I know this may be off topic but some were already making comments about false ministers and wacky ministries.

The only healing I know of attributed to God and verified by the doctor with two xrays happened in 2004.

A man in our ministry district in the Philippines was free diving for fish down to 50 feet holding his breath and sometimes using a hose to breath through.

One day he came up and then wasn't feeling good and the fishermen took him home. the next day when he awoke he could not walk. He went to the doctor and was told he had injured his hip socket due to the lack of oxygen from free diving.

he was in pretty bad pain and was told he needed to have his hip ball and socket replaced. which we all know cost a lot no matter where you are in the world.

I received a text that he was in the hospital and he wanted to see me. I went to visit him and the reason he wanted me was because he thought I could help him financially with the operation. But I was living by faith and at times barely got $300 a month for me, my wife and kids to live on much less doing ministry.

Anyway, I told him I didn't have any money but I would try and raise some for the purchase of the ball and socket.

I told him that maybe we were trusting to much in man and lets ask our Lord Jesus to heal him. He agreed so we prayed for him and that God would heal him so he would not even need an operation.

I went to see the doctor afterwards and the orthopedic doctor agreed to do the operation for free and so we only needed the money for the Anesthesiologist. I asked to see the Xray and the doctor explained to me that ball was degraded from lack of oxygen and in the xray you could see the ball was almost square and it was jammed up into the side of the socket. It also was slightly infected and so the infection would have to be dealt with first before they could operate.

The next day the doctor called me a and said the patient was walking with no pain and not knowing what was happening he took another xray and put the two side by side and the first one showing the damaged ball but in the second one the ball was completely round and in place no longer pushed up into the side of the socket. The doctor said he has never seen anything like it and wonder what had happened that is when I decided to tell him that we had prayed for God to heal him.

Today that man who was healed is a pastor on a small island in southern Philippines and would like me to come visit but I am in the States and have no funds to oblige him and have prayed but no supply as of yet.

I guess my point is men don't heal God does, and when a man takes on himself to call himself a healer any healing stops. Most are doing it to get a following and to make money. I am not a healer but I know the God who heals and I have never used ministry to make a living. As the Bible says, as one comes to Christ let him so live in Christ. that is live by faith because I came to Christ by faith.

I hate organized and institutional churches but love to minister.

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: chr0naut
The car crash was caused by a loose battery terminal which came off and caused the headlights to black out while the car was at speed. The terminal was loose because the car owner had just replaced the battery with a charged one because his alternator wasn't working properly. He had forgotten to tighten the bolt on the battery terminal.

And after watching all that its only then that you think a god intervened at the very last second to save the person.....just like a super hero....for dramatic effect?

It's weird how an atheist attributes to God what are clearly the consequences of human actions and the laws of physics.

No I attribute all of your tale to 'the consequences of human actions and the laws of physics', it's just you chose to introduce some form of super hero to explain what you couldn't.

To suggest God doesn't exist and then allocate blame to God seems to me to be the pinnacle of defective reasoning.

No defective reasoning would be to accuse an theist of allocating blame to a god....

To allow free will mandates that choices must be available and that there are discernible consequences to the action of those choices.

Lol right, 'discernible consequences' unless you have a superhero friend to save the day?

You're only deceiving yourself.

The Christian God is atemporal.

The cartoonish depiction of God that you gave does not mean that God is like that.

originally posted by: chr0naut

The Christian God is atemporal.

The cartoonish depiction of God that you gave does not mean that God is like that.

It fits the description perfectly, if it's atemporal then that's just another of it's super hero powers.

But if you're unable to refute that....

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: chr0naut

The Christian God is atemporal.

The cartoonish depiction of God that you gave does not mean that God is like that.

It fits the description perfectly, if it's atemporal then that's just another of it's super hero powers.

But if you're unable to refute that....

What's to refute?

Likening the prime intelligence and sole reason for existence of everything to a "superhero" cartoon character and then placing value judgements based upon that poor analogy is fairly silly.

Additionally, the fact that those healed do not dwell in their illness or injury AFTER it is healed, does not indicate that God swoops in "at the last moment". Once people are healed, the situation is over.

originally posted by: chr0naut

Likening the prime intelligence and sole reason for existence of everything to a "superhero" cartoon character and then placing value judgements based upon that poor analogy is fairly silly.

The entire tale is silly, that's the point.....and many people also have such reverence for Superman and Batman...

Additionally, the fact that those healed do not dwell in their illness or injury AFTER it is healed, does not indicate that God swoops in "at the last moment". Once people are healed, the situation is over.

I'm not sure what it is you're attempting to say here....

originally posted by: socksrocks
here is a simple but powerful thought for atheists. Just entertain the thought that God is real. If God is real, he is the creator of the universe, made everything right? That's what God is, the creator of everything, the stars, planets, our Earth. Made the trees, flowers, every insect, animal, just everything right. He created you, me,every person who has ever lived. This means God created everything, but there is infact one place God cannot be, its within you. Its a choice, God is in everything, except the people who choose to shut God out.

nope - if god is in everything then god is in us atheists too - else god is NOT in everything.

sorry about that

Back to he OP - if god is real then I look forward to having a conversation with him/her/it some time when he/she/it finally makes him/her/itself real enough to have an actual conversation with...and it will start with me asking why he/she/it is such a jerk.

I would say even if god is real, I wouldn't want to anything to do with him anyway. In my opinion he's pretty much the most evil thing in existence. The bible promotes rape, incest, genocide, patricide, matricide, murdering children, human sacrifice, and etc. If the bible is the word of god then everything listed below is something god approves. By today's standards he is a psychopath.

MURDER AND GENOCIDE:
Genesis 7:18-23
Job 9:22
Exodus 12:29
Exodus 12:36
Exodus 32:27-29
Deuteronomy 13:6-11
Numbers 31:17
Deuteronomy 13:13-19
Romans 9:21-22
Isaiah 13:15-18
Deuteronomy 20:16-17
1 Samuel 15:3

ANIMAL AND HUMAN SACRIFICE:
Exodus 20:24
Hebrews 9:22
Leviticus 1:9
Judges 11:30-39
Hebrews 10:10
Numbers 31:40

TORTURE:
Revelation 9:5-6
Revelation 20:10-15
Revelations 21:8

CHILD ABUSE:
Genesis 22:2-10
Exodus 12:29
2 Samuel 12:15-18
2 Kings 2:23-24
Proverbs 23:13-14
Mark 7:9-13
John 3:5

ANIMAL ABUSE:
Joshua 11:6
Genesis 7:18-23

THEFT:
Deuteronomy 20:13-14
Luke 19:30-35

SLAVERY:
Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:7
1 Peter 2:18
Ephesians 6:5,7
Exodus 21:20-21

PEDOPHILIA:
Numbers 31:17-18
Exodus 21:7-11

RAPE:
Numbers 31:17-18
Genesis 19:8
2 Peter 2:7-8
2 Samuel 12:11
Deuteronomy 22:28-29

INCEST:
Genesis 19:36
Genesis 3:20
Genesis 7:1 and 13
Genesis 9:1

CANNIBALISM:
Jeremiah 19:9
Deuteronomy 28:53
Leviticus 26:27-29
John 6: 47

BETRAYAL:
John 13:21
Hebrews 10:9-10
Exodus 10:1
Romans 9:17-18
Ezekiel 20:25-26
Genesis 2:16-17
Genesis 3:4-5
Genesis 3:22
1 Peter 5:8
John 8:44

LYING:
Genesis 22:2
Genesis 8:21
2 Peter 3:10-11
1 Kings 22:23
2 Thessalonians 2:11
Ezekiel 14:9
Exodus 33:2
1 Timothy 6:15-16
John 1:18
Genesis 32:30
Exodus 6:2-3
Exodus 24:9-11
Exodus 33:11
Numbers 12:7-8
Proverbs 30:5-6
Isaiah 45:7

a reply to: Derpfest

God has personally killed a lot of people - this list is not people killing because of god - it is god doing the raining of fire & brimstone, turning to salt, afflicting with plague, etc all by him/her/itself.

The list includes lots of total innocents - eg the firstborn of Egypt who had to die for the Pharaoh not releasing the Israelites, 70,000 Israelites killed because David took a census when he was told not to, and so forth.