You hate religion, I get it...

I'm loving all the anger towards anti-theists, it's taking the heat off us humble atheists.
...also very amusing reading all the bickering here, I'm just glad I have no spiritual or religious faith, there is nothing which can offend my lack of belief.

originally posted by: grainofsand
I'm loving all the anger towards anti-theists, it's taking the heat off us humble atheists.
...also very amusing reading all the bickering here, I'm just glad I have no spiritual or religious faith, there is nothing which can offend my lack of belief.

Yes, there is a huge difference between the anti-theists and atheists or apathesits.

It is like the difference between Westboro Church members and your average pew sitter.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Trouble is, we pew sitters get accused of being WBC members, just as you do. I am called "hateful", told I hate Christians and religion, and crap like that all the time. It's tiring.

a reply to: grandmakdw

That is a good comparison, but how do you reconcile conflicting faiths?
My lack of religious or spiritual faith does not equate to an assertion that your particular faith is BS, but a faith in Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam, Zoroastrianism DOES equate to a belief that yours is BS.

So, how do you reconcile that? Do y'all ignore the basic fact that you believe in completely conflicting doctrines or something, but then how do you explain 'inter-faith' groups?
If your faith is 'true' then all the others must be false?

It's funny how religious folk of all flavours gloss over that elephant in the room. I expect you to do so as well.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: grandmakdw

That is a good comparison, but how do you reconcile conflicting faiths?
My lack of religious or spiritual faith does not equate to an assertion that your particular faith is BS, but a faith in Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam, Zoroastrianism DOES equate to a belief that yours is BS.

So, how do you reconcile that? Do y'all ignore the basic fact that you believe in completely conflicting doctrines or something, but then how do you explain 'inter-faith' groups?
If your faith is 'true' then all the others must be false?

It's funny how religious folk of all flavours gloss over that elephant in the room. I expect you to do so as well.

As far as I am concerned if someone has another faith, that is not my business, it is their business.

If they are not interested in hearing about my religion, I respect that, I only answer questions asked by others when dealing with people in person. If they don't ask about my religion, I don't tell them. If they ask if I am Christian, I answer yes. If they want to ask more I'll answer, if they don't want to know more beyond that, that is fine. I respect people's personal decisions as far as what they believe.

How I personally feel about other religions is personal. If someone asks me in person I will answer with respect. If they don't ask, I don't talk about it. My feelings don't count in my encounters with others, my actions count, my words count, but not my feelings.

Why do you feel the need to project feelings on me? How do you justify that you think you know what I feel or think without evidence of any sort except me saying I am a Christian?

a reply to: grandmakdw

Good for you pity the other 95% of them do get in your face and do try to inject their religion into others lives and governments.
Like I said I would have no problem If it was kept personal but it rarely is.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: grandmakdw

Good for you pity the other 95% of them do get in your face and do try to inject their religion into others lives and governments.
Like I said I would have no problem If it was kept personal but it rarely is.

I disagree with you about 95%, 95% of my Christian friends are nothing like you make them out to be.

It is probably 25%, like any group of people, who go over the top and are in your face.

I challenge you to ask everyone you know what their religion is. Don't ask any other questions, just nod and say ok, just taking a survey for a website, that's all I wanted to know.. Then after asking at least 100 Christians, come back and tell me how many try to convert you on the spot or get in your face in an invasive way.

In any and all groups of any kind (religious, political, racial, whatever) about 25% have emotional problems and may go over the top at any time. So I am willing to say that I bet less than 25% will get in your face and try and convert you, after you have finished asking 100 people. Keep a diary for the challenge and come back and let me know.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Why do you feel the need to project feelings on me? How do you justify that you think you know what I feel or think without evidence of any sort except me saying I am a Christian?

I asked a simple question and I indicated what I thought based on a long time of reading your defensive Christian posts.
Here, this is the only part of my post which referred to me imagining anything about you, the rest was all questions, which you did not answer:

If your faith is 'true' then all the others must be false?

It's funny how religious folk of all flavours gloss over that elephant in the room. I expect you to do so as well.

I asked you specifically because you seem to have invented the word Christophobe and seem to be particularly defensive about atheists questioning your beliefs.
I wanted to know how you reconcile people of other conflicting faiths who by default must consider your faith BS if they believe theirs is the truth.

And you in turn have to consider all other faiths BS if you genuinely believe yours is the absolute truth.
If you do not believe yours is the absolute truth then it is not faith.

I said I expected you to gloss over that elephant in the room, and I was correct. Your slippery worded answer said nothing really, but it does not surprise me.
Easy to knock those without faith, but ask questions about how you reconcile a completely conflicting faith and most religious folk appear to deflect, as you have.

*Edit*
And the more I think of it, the more the word 'Christophobe' appears more ridiculous.
Who is scared of Christ? Really?
Just because the Christian faith is ridiculed does not make it a phobia. Childlike attempts at finding a label to use as a victim as far as I see.
I think Buddhism, Shintoism, Islam, Christianity, Sikhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Paaganism, and everything in between equally ridiculous, but I fear none of them.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
I challenge you to ask everyone you know what their religion is. Don't ask any other questions, just nod and say ok, just taking a survey for a website, that's all I wanted to know.. Then after asking at least 100 Christians, come back and tell me how many try to convert you on the spot or get in your face in an invasive way.

People don't try to convert other who walk up to them and ask them a question.

My experience with this is that they try to convert me after I get to know them a little in a social situation, like at the local pool. I see the same people there nearly every time I go. We get to know each other as acquaintances - maybe have a few talks, we talk about their husband dying last year, my dogs, her grandchildren... After a couple weeks, they bring up religion, kind of unobtrusively. I'm polite, but don't ask any questions. The next time we see each other, she brings it up again and asks if I attend church. I politely answer her and try to change the subject. She brings it up again and asks if I'd like to attend church with her.

"No. I was raised in a religious family and have attended church. I'm not really interested. Thanks"
"Well, maybe that's because you haven't found the right one."
"No, thanks."
"What religion were your folks?"
"Christian."
"Well, me, too! We have something in common!"

So, I smile,say goodbye and leave for the day.

The next time I see her, she asks me if my husband and I would like to come to her house for Sunday dinner and we could attend their church that morning...

I told her, "I'm not interested in attending church. I'm not interested in religion. I don't want to talk about religion or church anymore. It's not an option."

She got pissed and talked about me with the other ladies.

I don't go to the pool anymore...

The above actually happened, but I cannot tell you how many other times this kind of thing has happened to me in my lifetime.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Why do you feel the need to project feelings on me? How do you justify that you think you know what I feel or think without evidence of any sort except me saying I am a Christian?

I asked a simple question and I indicated what I thought based on a long time of reading your defensive Christian posts.
Here, this is the only part of my post which referred to me imagining anything about you, the rest was all questions, which you did not answer:

If your faith is 'true' then all the others must be false?

It's funny how religious folk of all flavours gloss over that elephant in the room. I expect you to do so as well.

I asked you specifically because you seem to have invented the word Christophobe and seem to be particularly defensive about atheists questioning your beliefs.
I wanted to know how you reconcile people of other conflicting faiths who by default must consider your faith BS if they believe theirs is the truth.

And you in turn have to consider all other faiths BS if you genuinely believe yours is the absolute truth.
If you do not believe yours is the absolute truth then it is not faith.

I said I expected you to gloss over that elephant in the room, and I was correct. Your slippery worded answer said nothing really, but it does not surprise me.
Easy to knock those without faith, but ask questions about how you reconcile a completely conflicting faith and most religious folk appear to deflect, as you have.

*Edit*
And the more I think of it, the more the word 'Christophobe' appears more ridiculous.
Who is scared of Christ? Really?
Just because the Christian faith is ridiculed does not make it a phobia. Childlike attempts at finding a label to use as a victim as far as I see.
I think Buddhism, Shintoism, Islam, Christianity, Sikhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Paaganism, and everything in between equally ridiculous, but I fear none of them.

Why do you really care if I think it is the absolute truth or not?

If you are apatheistic as you claim, you would not care.

It makes absolutely no difference to anyone else
nor does it change their faith
nor does it change who they are
if or what I believe.

My belief is personal affects no one but me and that is as it should be.

You seem to want me to rail about other faiths and prove myself a bigot,
well, I won't.

What others believe is what they believe.
Their belief does not affect me unless they behave badly because of it (ie ISIS)

Anyone can believe whatever they want,
they can tell me what they believe.
It won't change what I believe,
and I won't force my personal faith on anyone.

So as long as my actions towards others
I deal with in person are respectful,
my feelings about their faith is
totally moot and unimportant.
It is how treat others, in person,
that matters, not what I think of my faith or theirs.

Christophobic is a term I invented.
I based it on the word homophobic,
people who are afraid of homosexuals.

I think it quite clearly describes many on ATS
who openly deride Christians with bigoted remarks,
their personal hurts and pains have caused them
to fear Christians
and thus lash out in the most ugly ways possible;

thus they fear Christians because of their personal unconscious feelings,
just like homophobic, they are Christophobic.

The elephant in the room, as you put it,
is your own imaginary elephant,
not mine.

Love God but

Google Church child abuse and you get 90 400 000 hits

Dont like his representatives

originally posted by: khnum
Love God but

Google Church child abuse and you get 90 400 000 hits

Dont like his representatives

Your reply is a textbook example of Christophobia.

That aside,

Do you love socialism?

Google national socialism.
National socialism was a group of people who did their best to put socialism into action
with national pride and fervor.

I don't like their representatives and the way they lived out socialism.

Every group, and I mean every has it perverts, it's sickos, it's weirdos,
tell me who you affiliate with politically, racially, career wise.
We can google up a crowd of perverts, sickos, and weirdos based on
any of the three regardless of your answer.

At any given time 25% of any group you can name has perverts, sickos, and weirdos in it.
Check out psychology sites and texts and you will find this to be true.
So name any group you like as large as Christianity that you respect and
think is wonderful and all good
and we'll google up a storm
of perverts, sickos, and weirdos.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
The elephant in the room, as you put it,
is your own imaginary elephant,
not mine.

It's not imaginary, you just deflect with your slippery answers.
If you absolutely believe Christianity (of whatever denomination) is the absolute truth over any other religion then that means, by obvious default, that you believe Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Paganism, Zoroastrianism and everything in between to be false.

That is a pretty clear and logical position, unless you do not believe your version of Christianity to be the absolute truth of course.

...but it is easier to give slippery answers to gloss over that elephant in the room.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Let me see you have the Catholic church.
The American evangelicals via the Reverend Moon to the Rockerfellers
and the rest via the Queen and others to the Rothschilds.
10000 clueless Devil possessed channels
Ever met a true Christian that can do any of the feats listed in the Acts of the apostles.
I have
they wouldn't go near a church
save to prophesise against it.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: grandmakdw
The elephant in the room, as you put it,
is your own imaginary elephant,
not mine.

It's not imaginary, you just deflect with your slippery answers.
If you absolutely believe Christianity (of whatever denomination) is the absolute truth over any other religion then that means, by obvious default, that you believe Islam, Buddhism, Shintoism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Paganism, Zoroastrianism and everything in between to be false.

That is a pretty clear and logical position, unless you do not believe your version of Christianity to be the absolute truth of course.

...but it is easier to give slippery answers to gloss over that elephant in the room.

Why do you care so much what "I" believe?

It is you who is making an elephant out of it.

I'm not being "slippery" everyone has a right to believe what they want, I
will not denigrate others as you are attempting to goad me into doing,
so stop trying.

What do you believe about each of those religions?
OR do you think atheism is the one and only correct thought about religion?
Do you think that the way you think is the one and only correct train of thought?

If you think they are all wrong
and only atheism is correct
then your elephant is so big
it is crowding out your ability
to reason about others and
their beliefs.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Why do you care so much what "I" believe?

I don't really care what you believe, I am just interested in your thoughts of others with conflicting beliefs. You know, those who think your beliefs are BS.
You focus on those without belief but people who believe other doctrines view Christianity with the same ridicule as an atheist.
Why focus on atheists?

It is you who is making an elephant out of it.

Nope, just having an interesting discussion. My observation stands well.

I'm not being "slippery" everyone has a right to believe what they want, I
will not denigrate others as you are attempting to goad me into doing,
so stop trying.

I',m asking you if the other faiths are false in your opinion. Why is it so difficult to answer that, do you not believe your Christian faith to be the absolute truth?

What do you believe about each of those religions?
OR do you think atheism is the one and only correct thought about religion?
Do you think that the way you think is the one and only correct train of thought?

If you think they are all wrong
and only atheism is correct
then your elephant is so big
it is crowding out your ability
to reason about others and
their beliefs.

I have no reason to believe that any religious or spiritual faith is true so I don't belive in any.
I refer you to my Pixie thread, it should help you understand my perspective.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Why do you care so much what "I" believe?

I don't really care what you believe, I am just interested in your thoughts of others with conflicting beliefs. You know, those who think your beliefs are BS.
You focus on those without belief but people who believe other doctrines view Christianity with the same ridicule as an atheist.
Why focus on atheists?

It is you who is making an elephant out of it.

Nope, just having an interesting discussion. My observation stands well.

I'm not being "slippery" everyone has a right to believe what they want, I
will not denigrate others as you are attempting to goad me into doing,
so stop trying.

I',m asking you if the other faiths are false in your opinion. Why is it so difficult to answer that, do you not believe your Christian faith to be the absolute truth?

What do you believe about each of those religions?
OR do you think atheism is the one and only correct thought about religion?
Do you think that the way you think is the one and only correct train of thought?

If you think they are all wrong
and only atheism is correct
then your elephant is so big
it is crowding out your ability
to reason about others and
their beliefs.

I have no reason to believe that any religious or spiritual faith is true so I don't belive in any.
I refer you to my Pixie thread, it should help you understand my perspective.

If you don't believe in any religion, then why are you interested in me discussing mine. The only possible reason is to ridicule. If you feel strongly that all religion is wrong and useless, then why explore what anyone else thinks?
What purpose does it serve?

There is only one thing I can see you gaining from asking me these questions.
It is to give you something to ridicule and make fun of to make yourself feel superior.

So I won't play.

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Why do you care so much what "I" believe?

I don't really care what you believe, I am just interested in your thoughts of others with conflicting beliefs. You know, those who think your beliefs are BS.
You focus on those without belief but people who believe other doctrines view Christianity with the same ridicule as an atheist.
Why focus on atheists?

It is you who is making an elephant out of it.

Nope, just having an interesting discussion. My observation stands well.

I'm not being "slippery" everyone has a right to believe what they want, I
will not denigrate others as you are attempting to goad me into doing,
so stop trying.

I',m asking you if the other faiths are false in your opinion. Why is it so difficult to answer that, do you not believe your Christian faith to be the absolute truth?

What do you believe about each of those religions?
OR do you think atheism is the one and only correct thought about religion?
Do you think that the way you think is the one and only correct train of thought?

If you think they are all wrong
and only atheism is correct
then your elephant is so big
it is crowding out your ability
to reason about others and
their beliefs.

I have no reason to believe that any religious or spiritual faith is true so I don't belive in any.
I refer you to my Pixie thread, it should help you understand my perspective.

If you don't believe in any religion, then why are you interested in me discussing mine. The only possible reason is to ridicule. If you feel strongly that all religion is wrong and useless, then why explore what anyone else thinks?
What purpose does it serve?

There is only one thing I can see you gaining from asking me these questions.
It is to give you something to ridicule and make fun of to make yourself feel superior.

So I won't play.

Ah, okay, you do not wish to have a discussion in a discussion forum.
That's cool, everyone else can see the simple points and questions I raised, and how you have refused to debate.
That pleases me, my point has been made well enough by your responses.

It makes me chuckle that you cannot say Hinduism, Shintoism, Sikhism, Islam, Paganism, Zoroastrianism, and everything in between is a false belief.
I would have thought that if one held an absolute belief that their religion/spirituality was absolutely true then by default they would have to hold a belief that all others are false.

You are a slippery one, but it is good that others can read your replies and make their own minds about this discussion between us.

a reply to: ketsuko

I originally posted here the following:

I would have to disagree with your opinion that religious discussion should be discussed within an Evolution forum. My reasoning is simple: EVOLUTION is the study of how species have evolved into what we are today. Religion is the forum that amply covers the "poof" we appeared theory of how all the animals have appeared on Earth through some 'divine edict'.

Evolution is the realm of science and therefore religion should have no say in the matter. If you want to talk about god in a scientific forum, expect backlash.

I have been educated that the forum that I was commenting on was not actually a scientific forum and I was wrong. Please disregard my inaccuracies above.

Also, I am offended (should go both ways) that people who believe in their religion state that I am a 'Hater' for not agreeing with their point of view. I do not hate religion nor am I a hater and I personally feel that it is a manners violation of the T&C's if someone refers to someone that does not believe in their religion is a hater.

If someone posts that my business acumen is not up to snuff, or my knowledge on a certain subject that I commented on is insufficient and called me a moron, I do not cry about it; I get more knowledge or change/defend my opinion.

To me and many others I am just tired of worrying about hurting someone's feelings every time I have an opinion. Some people do not like religion for whatever reason; deal with it as we have to deal with censorship because we do not want to have it in our face every time we try to have a rational discussion about something non related.

originally posted by: notmyrealname
I would have to disagree with your opinion that religious discussion should be discussed within an Evolution forum. My reasoning is simple: EVOLUTION is the study of how species have evolved into what we are today.
Evolution is the realm of science and therefore religion should have no say in the matter. If you want to talk about god in a scientific forum, expect backlash.

Let me just explain something about the structure of ATS forums.
ATS does not, in fact, have a scientific "Evolution" forum.
It does have an "Origins and Creationism" forum, which was established for reasons which SkepticOverlord described in the opening thread;

Just as we've added the "Peak Oil" forum for the increased topics related to diminishing oil reserves and increased demand, we've now added a new forum dedicated to the discussion of the origins debate, as well as the discussion of other alternative ancient origin stories.

In other words, it is specifically intended for arguing out "Evolution v Creation", because of the conspiracy angle of creationism being introduced into U.S. schools. (I think this was mentioned in the forum description, in the days when forum descriptions were still visible)