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it implies that there is something controlling the body. It is a system of (trillions?) of cells. There is no necessity for something to be controlling the body,
when each cell (metaphorically) knows what to do.
It's a letter in the alphabet.
A third intervening factor is most likely responsible in this case, which acts on both your perception of causing things to happen and that which actually causes your body to move.
don't think the last part of that question ever arises in terms of how I have laid it out here. It will never be in another organism, because it is only the consequence of one particular group of cells which lived at one particular time in one particular environment. Change any of those factors and "you" are significantly different.
A causes B
B causes A
C causes A and B
C causes A and D; D causes B
The sun in a “true objective sense”, “beyond the human construct of it”...let me guess, what the sun looks like without anyone to look at it? or how an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God might describe it? I don't even consider questions like these. There are no grounds to even ask them.
'
“Invoking a subjective state”. I’m not even sure what that means.
Yes the self is an illusion
Reality is not what we say it is. That's the point. Humans don't get to speak, or define the universe, on behalf of the universe.
An illusion requires perception, awareness. The sense of self is a derivative of introspection. How does an illusion have the power of introspection. You claimed to have thought about writing this thread before you physically typed it out. That is introspection. Awareness of your own thoughts. Not an illusion.
You must First " Feel " Before you can Act . Cause and Effect you know........
"Reality is not what we say it is", is saying something about reality.
I must admit I have trouble with these sorts of words. It's all very abstract and I cannot really connect them to anything in the world.
originally posted by: ancientthunder
Your thoughts and feeling are yours because there is a receiver of those thoughts and feelings, what is that receiver? Generally speaking the receiver has a name and location, a form by which he/she can be identified. We use the body as a form of identification, this body identifies a string of experiences with other bodies. Is that what we are fully/ wholly? I would say no, but it is what we appear to be. Each body appears to be alive and engaged in living everything that is perceived. There is nothing wrong with the mine approach as long as one know that is just a story, it when we fully believe that as a total truth. Then.... we are like a kind of pinnocchio, a foolish. Which we all are at moments of our life, then we are swallowed up by something much larger and the fool is seen and (maybe) at that point a deeper quality can be realized.
originally posted by: HarryJoy
a reply to: Unity_99
Thank you Unity for bringing more positive "feelings" into the thread. I know that my responses were not of a very positive nature and it is often hard for me to know what the right thing to do is. I know that it would be great if all could be bright and positive in life. And yet the reality is there is much negativity that must be dealt with in life. David in the old testament was "a man after God's own heart" and yet his hands were stained with the blood of his enemies. I don't want to promote violence and yet I don't know what proper balance within our current world would look like. Jesus did teach us to be humble and meek and yet even he made a whip of cords and drove the money changers out of the temple ( although it is not recorded that he struck anyone). All I can do is ask to be guided in the way by those powers that are purer and greater than I.
originally posted by: Specimen
It odd how Jedi are supposed be mindful, but yet try to ignore, or even forbid feeling and keep it to themselves, while the Sith like to express their feelings when ever they feel, like love or anger and possibly use that cheesy line " I feel so good, it bad",
While my Jedi feelings tell me, that so cheesy, I just had to Jedi mind wipe it from my brain, and insulted their proud-ful feelings of being orignal, I destroyed their moment.
originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Is there then a point where feelings end and emotions begin? At what point what point is that? The thing is we never stop feeling and we never stop thinking. How can one end and the other begin?
Of course there's something controlling it. Me. If there is nothing controlling it then how does my body move around? Or type this sentence? Illusion is a stupid non-answer. A cop out. So please give something more substantial than that if at all possible.
So my body "metaphorically" knows what to do. So I am a metaphor now. Trippy
So how does the letter of the alphabet recall (via control) a memory? How does the body control introspection?
And what might that be?
What causes the sense of self to be stable. Why can I wake up and feel like the same person. If my identity is a product of my group of cells, which I'm okay with, then how does it remain conserved even as all my cells are constantly changing, dying off, and regenerating though out time.
originally posted by: zackli
Ok, I'll concede that you, as an object, exist. Before you yell at me for adding "as an object", let me explain. As I referred to in my other post, individuals have ideas about the world around them. Calling them ideas is fairly arbitrary, but it is the accepted vocabulary of our times.
originally posted by: zackli
You, existing as you do, also have a concept of yourself. It contains all of your salient features. The emphasis, once again, is on salient.
originally posted by: zackli
How does a planet orbit its star? Magic. I'll get back to you on that.
originally posted by: zackli
It's purely metaphorical. You only have one brain. As far as locating it in the real world, it's probably scattered all over your brain. I lack the neuroscience background to name the particular regions, or even to know what those names mean at this time.
originally posted by: WASTYT
What causes the sense of self to be stable. Why can I wake up and feel like the same person. If my identity is a product of my group of cells, which I'm okay with, then how does it remain conserved even as all my cells are constantly changing, dying off, and regenerating though out time.
originally posted by: zackli
Anyway, my proposed answer is salience. It's not going to be very satisfying, and will probably sound like a cop-out, but there's no getting around it.
originally posted by: zackli
If, as I proposed previously, people just have an "idea" of themselves, which would be one of hundreds of thousands/millions/billions (unknown) of other ideas, it would allow for quite a bit of change while still maintaining consistency.
originally posted by: zackli
If you still don't get it, I don't really know what to tell you. I'll be thinking more about this throughout the week.
originally posted by: zackli
If you don't understand what I mean, think about what the dictionary definition for any word is. If you can successfully think of the definition, you understand what I mean.
i·de·a (ī-dē′ə)
n.
1. Something, such as a thought or conception, that is the product of mental activity.
2. An opinion, conviction, or principle: has some strange political ideas.
3. A plan, purpose, or goal: She started school with the idea of becoming a doctor.
4. The gist or significance: The idea of the article is that investing in green technology can save you money in the long run.
5. A sense that something can happen; a notion or expectation: They have this idea that we can just drop what we're doing and go to the park.
thought (thôt)
v.
Past tense and past participle of think.
n.
1. The process of thinking; cogitation: sitting deep in thought at the computer.
2. A product of thinking or other mental activity: What are your thoughts on this matter? See Synonyms at idea.
3. The faculty of thinking or reasoning: Why not use thought instead of emotion to solve the problem?
4. The intellectual activity or production of a particular time or group: ancient Greek thought; deconstructionist thought.
5. Consideration; attention: didn't give much thought to what she said.
6. a. Intention; purpose: My thought is to live in a house on a lake.
b. Expectation or conception: She had no thought that anything was wrong.
think·ing (thĭng′kĭng)
n.
1. The act or practice of one that thinks; thought.
2. A way of reasoning; judgment: To my thinking, this is not a good idea.
adj.
Characterized by thought or thoughtfulness; rational: We are thinking animals.
con·cept (kŏn′sĕpt′)
n.
1. A general idea or understanding of something: the concept of inertia; the concept of free will. See Synonyms at idea.
2. A plan or original idea: The original concept was for a building with 12 floors.
3. A unifying idea or theme, especially for a product or service: a new restaurant concept.
originally posted by: zackli
A causes B
B causes A
C causes A and B
C causes A and D; D causes B
originally posted by: WASTYT
Suppose B = walking. Define A, C and D
originally posted by: zackli
A = Your brain
B = electrical signals sent to your legs
[1] deepblue.lib.umich.edu...
Yes, my body is an object. That's fine. You say "idea" and "concept". What are these physically speaking?
There is nothing tangible about an idea yet our sense of introspection (awareness of our thoughts) allows us to create and think about them at length.
Our bodies, if we must, can decide when and how to turn these non-tangible ideas into things that are tangible…. And even if they are illusions, and this feeling of myself is an illusion, somehow I can turn those illusions into actual physical things. Makes sense?
Can you expound more about what you mean by "salience" and "salient features"?
Before there was language, did our ancestors not feel a sense of self or identity?
How did they conceptualize both temporally and spatially without language? Does meaning require language? What is meaning? How does the body create meaning in anything? Feelings included.
Hmm, yeah you're right. Not very satisfying from an explanatory standpoint.
How does anyone have an idea of themselves if the part (the self) that conjures an idea is an illusion?
It's not about not getting it. It's an inadequacy in the explanation of the phenomena.
What commands the brain to generate those signals to the legs versus the arms let's say?
Yet, as I command my body to type this I still don't understand how anyone holds the notion that our feeling of existence is illusory.
Thanks, I'll have a read over a cup of joe.
Of course we do not literally wish to know how you are doing, or your feelings.