The "Gun Show Loophole" and Other Myths

originally posted by: LeatherNLace
Call it what you will....in this day and age, the unmitigated ability to transfer ownership of an instrument of death from one private citizen to another has run it's course. It is past time that such transfers of ownership follow standard federal guidelines.

It is just a drop in the bucket, but every little bit counts. I'm a gun owner (several times over) and those who stomp their foot at any and all regulation give the rest of us a bad rap.....you guys/gals also belong on a federal database....if for no other reason, because of your fanatical, obsessive gun rights fetish. That ish is borderline psychotic.

Believing in civil rights is neither a fetish nor psychotic.

a reply to: Answer

Our crime problems have nothing to do with the availability of guns.

Well that's true, since overall crime rates in the US aren't that much worse than most other developed countries with relatively similar cultures. Its just the 16 thousand homicides a year that stands out, 12 thousand of which are committed with a gun.

Source

I suppose you could point out the other few countries who have similar gun ownership rates and don't have anywhere near the same murder rate. But that really doesn't solve the mystery of why overall crime rates aren't that much higher in the US compared to other (similar) developed countries, yet the murder rate is much higher.

Your point is what, exactly? Even if guns were illegal nationwide, the criminals would still have them. That's common sense.

So since people will always drive dangerously and kill people, we should just not bother having any laws to prevent dangerous driving then?

Criminals, by their nature, do not abide by the law. There is no law that would keep criminals from obtaining firearms.

True, but there are many laws you could enact that would make illegal guns far more expensive and harder to obtain. You can also do plenty to make the bullets hard for criminals to get hold of, then at least criminals would be far less likely to actually fire the gun well using it in petty crimes.

I just don't appreciate someone who thinks I shouldn't own a gun because criminals can get access to guns. The only people who are disarmed by strict gun laws are law-abiding citizens.

I never once indicated that I thought "law-abiding citizens" shouldn't be allowed to own a gun, in your country or mine. I just don't agree with the logic of how the lack of regulations don't result in more overall homicides and accidental shootings.

More restrictions simply disarms petty criminals who can't afford the high prices of illegal guns and also people who aren't prepared to go to a little extra effort to obtain them, or prepared to learn how to use them safely.

Its the logic and mentality that bothers me, not the actual gun.

Its Shockingly Easy to Buy a Gun Online Without a Background Check

Gun show loophole is not a myth. It's term attributed to "private sellers" that used to be more prevalent in gun shows than they are now. But we live in the Internet age. Sites like Armslist sell tens of thousands of guns each year. A majority of those sales are private sellers. And here's why...

Source quote from high volume online "private seller":

" weighing the costs and benefits of getting a federal firearms license, he decided that given the current law, it made sense for him to sell without one. ' I don't have an FFL, and I was going back and forth about whether I should take that leap. But the way it stands now with the current laws, if I'm not a dealer I don't have to do background checks. If I get my FFL, I'd be required to do background checks."'

a reply to: HighFive
Wow, that's pretty bad. Having dealt with a large number of people from all walks of life, I can tell you that most people are crazy. From what I understand about the background check, most aren't crazy enough to flunk it. We need psych evaluations as well. A federal database does seem Orwellian, but I bet law enforcement appreciates having a heads up. Guns are dangerous toys. Regulation is an absolute necessity. It even seems like a positive event and patriotic duty to be cleared and registered for a gun. Gun owners need to prove that they have a heightened responsibility and the ability to remain calm and focused when holding firearms. I see no reason to outlaw guns, but I see plenty of reasons to heavily regulate them.

I hope the theater is packing when I go see Star Wars 7 in the off chance some nut job pulls out a gun. I would love a shooter to be mowed down before he administers all the possible pain and death. I'd just catch the next showing.

a reply to: gentledissident

I don't know about psych evaluations for every gun buy, but if you've had mental health issues that should be available to the agency granting permits along with the criminal record of the buyer.

Most of the fixes are relatively simple and are supported by most Americans like universal background checks.

I love my guns but, it's important to remember:
People can easily buy guns without background checks.
We ALREADY regulate guns. No automatic weapons, no shoulder fired RPGs, no 100 round clips, people with felonies can't own guns, etc

We're really just talking about where to draw or re-draw the line.
The government isn't trying to take our guns. In fact nothing will change in Washington because both sides of the aisle fear the gun lobby

originally posted by: HighFive
Its Shockingly Easy to Buy a Gun Online Without a Background Check

Gun show loophole is not a myth. It's term attributed to "private sellers" that used to be more prevalent in gun shows than they are now. But we live in the Internet age. Sites like Armslist sell tens of thousands of guns each year. A majority of those sales are private sellers. And here's why...

Source quote from high volume online "private seller":

" weighing the costs and benefits of getting a federal firearms license, he decided that given the current law, it made sense for him to sell without one. ' I don't have an FFL, and I was going back and forth about whether I should take that leap. But the way it stands now with the current laws, if I'm not a dealer I don't have to do background checks. If I get my FFL, I'd be required to do background checks."'

You are quoting"Mayors against illegal guns"?Like they never ,ever lie,right?Geez,you can do better than Bloomberg and Mother Jones.What a complete load of manure!

originally posted by: HighFive
a reply to: gentledissident

I don't know about psych evaluations for every gun buy, but if you've had mental health issues that should be available to the agency granting permits along with the criminal record of the buyer.

I can dream, can't I? It would be a good chance to check someone's brain space. The state of mental health and its availability in the US is sad. I majored in psych at 2 colleges, so I have a little insight. Tests are designed to get people on a sofa. The money keeps them there. It's not like anyone can walk in off the street, meet a counselor, and confess to having a strong urge to kill a bunch of people. I'd love to give a crazy psychologist or anyone a chance to talk down a potential shooter. There's just no way for someone to get quick, free, and confidential mental help. Bad brains, not guns, are the problem.

originally posted by: Sunwolf
You are quoting"Mayors against illegal guns"?Like they never ,ever lie,right?Geez,you can do better than Bloomberg and Mother Jones.What a complete load of manure!

They're also pretty irresponsible. I didn't know I could easily get a gun in a couple of days without a background check until I read the article.

originally posted by: Sunwolf

originally posted by: HighFive
Its Shockingly Easy to Buy a Gun Online Without a Background Check

You are quoting"Mayors against illegal guns"?Like they never ,ever lie,right?Geez,you can do better than Bloomberg and Mother Jones.What a complete load of manure!

I used a business insider source, but It wasn't the only article on the subject.
Try this, Google - online guns no background check
I'm simply pointing out that they happen everyday

Are you arguing that guns aren't frequently sold without background checks online?
Or saying there shouldn't be background checks at all?
Since you only attacked my source I can't really tell if our opinions on differ on gun regulations.
I'm a hunter and have a concealed weapons permit, but support universal background checks.

This being my first post I wish to say hello and i'm excited to be here!

Now, in response to the OP, I love the info and agree with approximately 97.42% The info in question is your #1 point.
I am a serious collector and i suppose "enthusiast" of firearms. I cannot come out and say "YOU'RE WRONG" because gun laws vary by state, county, township etc.. BUT being a resident of Pennsylvania, I have on more than one occasion purchased MULTIPLE firearms the same day, same hour even at gun shows. Heck on one occasion i purchased an AR-15, French MAS 49/56 (which is also a semi-auto firearm), 8mm turkish mauser and a few other older model military rifles.

To add to that I never ONCE was subject to the typical background check. Rarely was I even asked to produce proper ID.

Granted these were rifles, not handguns. Had they been handguns I most certainly WOULD NEED TO fill out the form and undergo background.

Basically my point here is, while your facts are well versed and informative, there are towns were you can walk into a gun show and buy up as many rifles as you please. (assuming laws in my area have not changed in the last 18months)

I noticed that the op hasn't provided any cited stats with links for his opinions of so called facts and figures...No bother im sure he can cherry pick some later if he tries hard enough.

The gun show loophole exists its a fact! Criminals go there and by guns another fact. Though most of the illegal gun sales at shows are sold by corrupt FFLs which in itself proves there needs to be tighter restrictions on the sellers and generally at these shows. A lot of them are done by straw buyers, maybe people should be on a register when they buy a gun and prove they still have it every year?

The op continuously keeps telling us that gun restriction do not have any effect on violent crime stats as if solving all violent crime was the objective. Not all violent crime is committed with a gun. Gun restrictions are mainly to stop people killing other people with guns. America has lots of guns so they have lots of mass killings with guns.

A few people have said that countries with similar gun laws to the US don't have as many crimes. Yes this is true American;s are brought up in a culture of violence and it seems they cant be trusted with gun laws similar to other countries. Tougher laws are obviously needed. Australia had lots of mass shooting until the government banned them and since they have had none. The price of a black market machine gun went up to tens of thousands which puts them out of the reach of a small time crook. If you can save up 30 grand for a gun you dont need to rob and shoot people for cash.

I know some people like to argue that there are some ares in the US that have tougher gun laws but criminals still get hold of them. This is not surprising seeing as the rest of the country is awash with guns and easier sales. Gun restrictions would have to be country wide to work.

[quote/]a vast number of firearms go unregistered proving that the system is ineffective.

which proves that a better tighter system is needed.

The claim that background checks wouldn't stop every crazy person from getting their hands on a gun is true but again that's not the only reason for them. If we can spot a good number before they get them then that's good enough.

Making crime illegal hasn't stopped people committing crimes so should we give up the legal system completely and go without a police force?

Some people say they are responsible gun owners, they are trained to use their guns, why should they be effected just because of a few bad gun owners, they claim they need their guns for protection and to provide them food, they claim people will still use guns even if they are illegal.

These are all the same excuses that were used for owning slaves. Read the whole paragraph again and replace the word guns with slaves and it becomes crystal clear they are just BS excuses and not valid arguments.

originally posted by: gentledissident

originally posted by: Sunwolf
You are quoting"Mayors against illegal guns"?Like they never ,ever lie,right?Geez,you can do better than Bloomberg and Mother Jones.What a complete load of manure!

They're also pretty irresponsible. I didn't know I could easily get a gun in a couple of days without a background check until I read the article.

You better not go to Kansas or Maine or you will be murdered according to your logic.

a reply to: Answer

I have bipolar disorder and was institutionalized when I was younger, does this mean I can never buy a firearm?

Not that I particularly care but I am curious based off the questions you linked to.

Thanks for the informative read!!

Very well said. All things considered my state has very relaxed laws so it isn't painful here to buy, own or carry. Which is another argument altogether I suppose. At which level should this be decided federal or state?

I suppose because the gun is manufactured outside of the state and must be "imported" to that state makes it federal? Sorry if I'm getting off topic.

originally posted by: MrMasterMinder
I noticed that the op hasn't provided any cited stats with links for his opinions of so called facts and figures...No bother im sure he can cherry pick some later if he tries hard enough.

Like facts huh?

Though most of the illegal gun sales at shows are sold by corrupt FFLs

Please cite an official source for that nugget.
thanks in advance.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: MrMasterMinder
I noticed that the op hasn't provided any cited stats with links for his opinions of so called facts and figures...No bother im sure he can cherry pick some later if he tries hard enough.

Like facts huh?

Though most of the illegal gun sales at shows are sold by corrupt FFLs

Please cite an official source for that nugget.
thanks in advance.

Why who do you think sells the most guns illegally at gun shows?

Its from an ATF official report.

a reply to: LeatherNLace

Seeing how owning a gun is a constitutionally protected right, this would be akin to requiring you to tell the government what you and your neighbor are talking about despite the freedom of speech. I understand that words aren't capable of physically harming people, but it's an issue of constitutionally protected rights. Some people, believe it or not, don't trust the government. If I'm not breaking any laws with my gun, why does the government need to know I have it? that, in and of itself, should be worrisome to people. If you think the United States government is totally incapable of turning on it's own citizens I'd suggest taking a history class.

a reply to: MrMasterMinder

So am I to assume YOU are the official source for that?
please link said report.

originally posted by: HighFive
Its Shockingly Easy to Buy a Gun Online Without a Background Check

Gun show loophole is not a myth. It's term attributed to "private sellers" that used to be more prevalent in gun shows than they are now. But we live in the Internet age. Sites like Armslist sell tens of thousands of guns each year. A majority of those sales are private sellers. And here's why...

Source quote from high volume online "private seller":

" weighing the costs and benefits of getting a federal firearms license, he decided that given the current law, it made sense for him to sell without one. ' I don't have an FFL, and I was going back and forth about whether I should take that leap. But the way it stands now with the current laws, if I'm not a dealer I don't have to do background checks. If I get my FFL, I'd be required to do background checks."'

What he's doing is "dealing without a license" and that is illegal. I'm sure the ATF would be very interested in meeting the man who made those statements.

So again, there's already a law against that behavior but don't let that stop you from using terms like "loophole" where they don't apply.

originally posted by: MrMasterMinder

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: MrMasterMinder
I noticed that the op hasn't provided any cited stats with links for his opinions of so called facts and figures...No bother im sure he can cherry pick some later if he tries hard enough.

Like facts huh?

Though most of the illegal gun sales at shows are sold by corrupt FFLs



Well,cite your source.Anybody can say whatever they want on the internet.

Please cite an official source for that nugget.
thanks in advance.

Why who do you think sells the most guns illegally at gun shows?

Its from an ATF official report.

No source,no believe...