Channel Tunnel: '2,000 migrants' tried to enter

a reply to: stumason

This is all thanks to US government foreign policy

Europe always had immigration problem but never like this, not to mention boat refugees influx

This are Syrians Kurds Iraqis

All thanks to USA

a reply to: stumason

The irony of being criticised for my countries migrant policy (or my own views) by an Australian is not lost on me. A country that sticks all illegal migrants in concentration camps for years, with no hope of ever getting into a country that is the most sparsely populated on the planet.

Yeah, Abbott is an idiot and our governments policies on refugee's are disgracefully brutal. Locking woman and children up in minimum security prisons with potentially very dangerous males.

Telling us how people smugglers are the lowest form of life, well they actually pay people smugglers to turn the "boats back". Don't even get me started on how disgraceful Australia's refugee policy is.

But I'm not the one standing here trying to defend it, am I? Or personally getting all hot under the collar over people who go to desperate measures in order to make a better life for themselves.

a reply to: paraphi

What do you care what happens to Europe

Americans and American policy will be the end of Europe

Too bad Dumb Europeans don't get that.

a reply to: justQ

No, it's not "Syrians, Kurds and Iraqi's" - most are from Sub-Saharan Africa or the Indian sub-continent.

Contrary to what some may think, not everything is the fault of the US. These are people just trying to get into a country for work or a better life, but do so by circumventing the system and doing it illegally.

it is more akin to the US/Mexican problem, not because of "US Foreign Policy".

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
But I'm not the one standing here trying to defend it, am I? Or personally getting all hot under the collar over people who go to desperate measures in order to make a better life for themselves.

As I said before, genuine refugees deserve our help, but most of these people are not refugees.

What you're advocating is akin to Australia allowing anyone from Europe to just move there because we want a better life in the Sun, not because we're fleeing persecution. But as we all know, Australia has a points system and will only allow in people who can contribute, which is fair.

Are you for letting anyone into Australia, no matter what? That's what you're asking us to do.

originally posted by: justQ
a reply to: paraphi

What do you care what happens to Europe

Americans and American policy will be the end of Europe

Too bad Dumb Europeans don't get that.

Oh, give over...

We "care" what happens to Europe because it directly affects us, the same as it has always done. When we ignore what happens in Europe, it usually comes to bite us on the arse..

originally posted by: stumason
Most of them are economic migrants from sub-saharan Africa, not people fleeing persecution or War.

These countries are not serving their people, whether there is a war engulfing the country or not, they are still attempting to flee their own country for a better life elsewhere - and plenty of Brits do exactly the same every year too.

originally posted by: stumason
I believe genuine refugees should be looked after, but that is only a small section of the people trying to get into the UK.

That depends on your view of poverty though, doesn't it?
I personally believe that someone living in abject poverty with no hope for their future is almost as worthy as someone fleeing war. It can be claimed that the only real difference is that one has an immediate threat of injury or death as a result of war, but they're all running from the same absolute hopelessness for their future regardless of whether that's caused by a war.

originally posted by: stumason
They have paid many thousands of pounds to get trafficked, some paying well over £10k in total, so they weren't that hard done by - they have more cash than most normal folk in the UK!

I haven't seen this suggested in any serious way other than by the Daily Heil.
Most of these people pay whatever they can get together, whatever their friends and family can give them, to make their way to another country and away from the sh*thole they live in.

Trying to claim that these people are wealthier than you simply because they spent money to try to get to a better country is really nothing more than a desperate attempt to further demonize these people, imo.

originally posted by: stumason
I also think that the EU's policy of rescuing migrants from the Med isn't helping. By all means, rescue them, but take them back to Libya, not drop them off in Italy.

Unfortunately I think you're right, but how can we do this while also admitting that there are many people genuinely fleeing persecution?
You said it yourself, some of these people really are running away from people who want to kill them, and will kill them if they catch them, but we should just take them all back regardless and let those people be murdered?

originally posted by: stumason
All this does is embolden the traffickers as they know they only have to get them 40 miles off the Libyan coast and the Navy will take care of the rest, doing most of the job for them and removing any responsibility for the migrants from the people smugglers.

I agree, the smugglers don't give a damn about the people they are trafficking, and while they are insulated from taking responsibility and while nothing is done to prevent them from operating this is only going to get worse.

So what's the solution?

originally posted by: justQ
a reply to: paraphi

What do you care what happens to Europe

I could ask you the same thing. Besides, I live here.

The world is not all an American construct. Blaming the problems on migration on the Americans is a very simple worldview.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
These countries are not serving their people, whether there is a war engulfing the country or not, they are still attempting to flee their own country for a better life elsewhere - and plenty of Brits do exactly the same every year too.

Legally.... By applying to that country, fulfilling whatever criteria there is for migration and following the rules.

originally posted by: Rocker2013

That depends on your view of poverty though, doesn't it?
I personally believe that someone living in abject poverty with no hope for their future is almost as worthy as someone fleeing war. It can be claimed that the only real difference is that one has an immediate threat of injury or death as a result of war, but they're all running from the same absolute hopelessness for their future regardless of whether that's caused by a war.

And how is that solved by swamping another country with it's own problems? Why not stay at home, with the money they spent trying to get here and improving life there, instead of importing their problems here?

I get what you're saying, but if all the worlds disadvantaged and poor were allowed to move to somewhere else just for a "better life", then all that is happening is the problem is moved, not solved. These people aren't walking into high paying jobs here - many will in fact be treated no better than slaves by unscrupulous gang masters and employers.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
I haven't seen this suggested in any serious way other than by the Daily Heil.

Selective reading then, because the BBC and others have interviewed migrants who have quoted these figures to them directly. In fact, if you bother to look, many of the aid agencies will say the same thing as well - people are paying thousands to traffickers to get here.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
Most of these people pay whatever they can get together, whatever their friends and family can give them, to make their way to another country and away from the sh*thole they live in.

And end up being no better, or even worse off. It's exploitation, pure and simple. If they emigrated legally, that wouldn't happen to them.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
Trying to claim that these people are wealthier than you simply because they spent money to try to get to a better country is really nothing more than a desperate attempt to further demonize these people, imo.

No demonisation, just pointing out the glaringly obvious - they could have spent that money getting an education then actually being headhunted to come to the UK, not on the back of a truck.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
Unfortunately I think you're right, but how can we do this while also admitting that there are many people genuinely fleeing persecution?

If they are, all they have to do is go to an embassy of whatever country they choose and request asylum. Failing that, they can flee to the any number of safe countries in the region. Trying to get in illegally on a crappy boat or the back of a truck is the stupidest way of doing it.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
You said it yourself, some of these people really are running away from people who want to kill them, and will kill them if they catch them, but we should just take them all back regardless and let those people be murdered?

None are fleeing Libya - Libya is the launch pad for all the migrants congregating from elsewhere Dropping them back off there would at least send a message that this is not the way to do it. There are many proper ways of doing it.

originally posted by: stumason

I agree, the smugglers don't give a damn about the people they are trafficking, and while they are insulated from taking responsibility and while nothing is done to prevent them from operating this is only going to get worse.

So what's the solution?

Personally, I think a more pro-active foreign policy to sort these problems at their root.

The thing that scares me the most about this all is the dehumanization of a massive number of people, the complete detachment of the Human from the "mob" or "invaders".

Reading the opinions on this, even the the way reports on the BBC are being presented, it's absolutely scary the way people view those innocent people, the things they're calling them, the way they're being reduced to basically nothing but rodents.

And what's even more frightening is that people willfully ignore the CAUSES, and focus exclusively on these people being "criminals" for their actions. This is a deliberate move by organizations, governments, and individuals, to dehumanize all these people just so they don't have to consider the CAUSES of all of this.

People would rather describe these desperate people as vermin than even contemplate their genuine reasons for wanting to escape their own country.

We've seen this before in Europe, and we're seeing it again in Germany with more than 200 violent attacks on Migrant centers in the country this year alone - by far-right extremists.

This all comes back to the same thing... decades of European and world leaders doing absolutely sweet f-all about these countries, placating their despots, dealing with their religious crazies when it suits, allowing corporate corruption without challenge within these nations, ignoring the pleas of those within those countries who desperately needed outside help - politically - to change and improve their country.

You only need to look at where these people are trying to escape from to see the clear and obvious difference. We have spent decades doing nothing to help these countries to improve their society and economies, abusing them for profit while placating their governments with handouts (which usually go straight into the pockets of the despots too).

Why are we so surprised that this is now happening? Why are we so shocked that so many people are now wanting to escape their country for a better life here? They just need to turn on their phone and instantly see how good we have it in the UK, why wouldn't they want to flee their own poverty and come here?

The thing is, if the roles were reversed, and we were all living in their conditions and under the same threats from their leaders, WE WOULD ALL BE DOING THE SAME.

What we need to do, right now, is start holding their own leaders to account. If nothing changes in those countries to make them a functioning democracy, with a functioning economy, led by secular governments actually working for their people rather than themselves, then this problem is only going to get worse and worse, to the point where an atrocity is against these innocent people carried out by our governments is entirely possible.

a reply to: stumason

What you're advocating is akin to Australia allowing anyone from Europe to just move there because we want a better life in the Sun, not because we're fleeing persecution.

Well we don't seem to have a problem in letting all the pomes come over here and steal our 150k a year mining jobs, simply because they like the lifestyle and want to earn a higher wage. But when its a 3rd world person, the borders are closed, apparently.

Are you for letting anyone into Australia, no matter what? That's what you're asking us to do.

We should all at least fairly process anyone who attempts to enter our borders, to establish whether they are genuine refugee's

Though, your probably asking the wrong person mate. I'm totally against being bound to borders and think everyone should have the right to travel, live and work in what ever country they choose. I'm a NWO advocate.

But, coming from a more economically responsible point of view, I think Australia could easily handle at least 20 million more people. So people coming here really doesn't bother me one way or the other.

It does seem a little over populated over there in the UK though, if I was being honest. I sometimes look at the UK on google maps and just get blown away on how 60 million people could all live on such a small island, lol.

This is an EU problem in the first instance, and the complete absence of a joined-up EU response is not going to go in their favour when us Brits get our referendum. In the second instance it's a French problem - what it isn't is a British problem, which is what many local French people who have been interviewed appear to think. Funny how these old enmities rear their ugly head when there is a bit of external pressure.

The EU isn't working!

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
Well we don't seem to have a problem in letting all the pomes come over here and steal our 150k a year mining jobs, simply because they like the lifestyle and want to earn a higher wage. But when its a 3rd world person, the borders are closed, apparently.

Because us "Poms" have a skill to offer, apparently. However, if we don't, the borders are closed as well. I can't just decide to move to Australia, I need to fill a points quota. If I don't, then it's a thanks, but no thanks.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
We should all at least fairly process anyone who attempts to enter our borders, to establish whether they are genuine refugee's

Indeed and I agree - however, many of these migrants in Calais are not.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
Though, your probably asking the wrong person mate. I'm totally against being bound to borders and think everyone should have the right to travel, live and work in what ever country they choose. I'm a NWO advocate.

Ironically, so am I - I am all for a one world Government and no countries, but while such massive inequality exists, doing away with borders will simply create chaos.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
But, coming from a more economically responsible point of view, I think Australia could easily handle at least 20 million more people. So people coming here really doesn't bother me one way or the other.

You may have issues with acquiring water, being such a dry country, but yes, you probably could do more.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
It does seem a little over populated over there in the UK though, if I was being honest. I sometimes look at the UK on google maps and just get blown away on how 60 million people could all live on such a small island, lol.

Which is the problem. We do not have enough housing for the people who live here already and barely enough jobs, much less well paying ones. Letting in more will only exacerbate the problem.

a reply to: Rocker2013

Who is dehumanising them or calling them vermin? Not I.

I realise that the countries they come from are far from perfect and actually, the UK has spent billions in aid trying to help, but the people who live in and run those countries don't seem interested in doing the right thing, just lining their pockets.

There is only so much we can do before you have to ask why don't they do something about it themselves?

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: stumason

And for those who are genuine refugees, they are supposed to claim asylum in the first safe country - not travel across an entire continent to get to one they like the look of.

Oh, so what your saying is it should be everyone else who bares the burden, just not you? lol.

If you love these people so much then Australia can bloody take them!


Im fed up of my local motorway (M20) being on lock down due to these vermin.
A 15 minute trip can take 2 hours! France can deal with calais so maybe Britain should take it back? (J/k)

So migrants huh ?..what happened to people being people....wtf man ?..since when are people not people ?

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

So migrants huh ?..what happened to people being people....wtf man ?

Migrants are people but when they attempt to circumvent the rules set up to help such people they become illegal migrants , given the choice I put the rights and well being of the iBritish population first.

Britain is a multicultural country , we welcome people from all countries but in this time of war we need to protect our own interests first.
Britain isn't the only country in Europe.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
So migrants huh ?..what happened to people being people....wtf man ?..since when are people not people ?

Of course they are people... People who are migrating... Hence, migrants....

Not quite sure what any of that has to do with the problem though. Or would you just have us open the doors anybody who fancies coming here?

a reply to: stumason

Watch towers, barbed wire fences and machine guns. It may be very unsavoury but it would be highly effective. As Stu noted on his first response, there is a distinction between migrants and refugees. Refugees should always be offered shelter but migrants are a different issue.

And before anyone bleats about there human rights, at some stage we have to recognise that the people of the UK also have human rights. When illegal mass migrations take place (as has been happening for the past decade, at least) it puts tremendous strain of the public services in the host nation. We see increasing evidence of this so sooner or later we have to say, sorry our people come first.

Let me add though that whilst i recognise this to be the case, it does make me extremely uneasy to write it down. In an ideal world, we wouldn't need this to be an issue.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
So migrants huh ?..what happened to people being people....wtf man ?..since when are people not people ?

When they break the law, put people lives at risk and ground UK traffic to a halt!