Universalism ( All will be saved) and biblical verses that support this

So I'm reading through the bible. Have believed in the word for quite some time, but have felt very torn for quite some time now. I've met Athetists/ Muslims, Agnostics etc... who had bigger hearts then Christians and even me being christian we've had a very strong connection and It didn't feel right judging them or even worse separating from them because they didn't share my beliefs. Nor did it seem right that a loving God would send them to an eternal hellfire because their beliefs didn't line up with the bible, whereas at the same time A large group of christians in my church are about as hypocritical as they come, sleep around on their wives with other women in the congregation, lie , cheat , steal , drink etc.. but strongly believe in Christ and therefore would be justified in God's eyes??

I feel more confused then ever, as i've been hit with the realization that even christendom is SO divided on interpretations surrounding salvation, but recently It's gone a notch higher, I'm reading scriptures I didn't even know existed.. Scriptures like

Luke 3:6- And ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God (KJV)

God has imprisoned all men in their disobedience only to show mercy to all mankind. Romans 11:32

What we suffer in this life can never be compared to the glory, as yet unrevealed, which is waiting for us. The whole creation is eagerly waiting for God to reveal his sons ... From the beginning till now the entire creation, as we know, has been groaning in one great act of giving birth...
—Rom. 8.18-19,22

and maybe the most mind blowing..

We have put our trust in the living God and he is the savior of the whole human race but particularly of all believers.
—1 Tim. 4.10

Could this be the reason why Jesus said Father forgive them for they not know what they do to his very torturers on the cross? Could this be why Christians are commanded to forgive and love even their enemies? Why The apostle Paul especially in the book of Romans hints to a great mystery of God being revealed in the end and writes many letters with a tone of universalism to them?

All can feel free to weigh in, this topic is very confusing when you look at other scriptures that seem to point to more of a heaven v.s hell concepts and the sheep v.s the wolves and the great harvest... but that being said it is impossible to deny the implications of these verses claiming all will be saved. What is the truth? What do you believe?

There are far more verses that tell you that the only way to salvation is through Christ, and many of these are from Christ himself.

It is true that all shall be judged on that day, but none of us is worthy; God accepts only perfection. We need to come to the Father through Christ who can make us whole and perfect in the Father's eyes.

So explain to me how someone who actively turns from, denies and spits on Him can come to the Father through Him? It takes a certain humility to accept that saving grace.

a reply to: freedom7

I commend your reading of the book and finding your own interpretation.

I've always had trouble with the 'idea' that a 'loving god' would condemn any soul regardless of the transgression as well.

Piers Anthony in his books of the Incarnations of Immortality has a good take on this - if you like provocative fiction in the book on Satan. Great series.

I've always thought that everyone 'get's home' sometime but it's a matter of how much suffering (self-inflicted) is required along the way over multiple livetimes.

Just babbling but happy someone actual reads the book. It helps to know the context the 'verses' come from.

originally posted by: freedom7
A large group of christians in my church are about as hypocritical as they come, sleep around on their wives with other women in the congregation, lie , cheat , steal , drink etc.. but strongly believe in Christ and therefore would be justified in God's eyes??

Believing in Christ isn't a free pass into heaven. These people will be judged according to their motives and actions, not JUST beliefs.

The bible was written by man and translated many times throughout history. Some has been left behind and changed to reflect the desires to control the people at the time. IMO, you can't read the bible from cover to cover and take it literally.

Being Christlike to the best of your ability is your best bet.

There are a lot of great stories and lessons in the bible, but the contradictions prove that it cannot all be true and literal. So, if I were a Christian, I wouldn't worry so much about the words in the bible, but the message of Christ.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Yes, I've read those, but when firming up my spiritual beliefs, I tend to prefer the source material itself.

That's what I mean by feeling torn Ketsuko. I agree we have to come through Christ to be atoned and made right with the father. And only his redeeming work on that cross and the blood he shed can attone for our sins.

BUT, as for your question how can anyone who actively denies, turns away and spit on the cross experience grace through Christ and.. Sin is Sin. If we are to be honest, none of us deserve such a radical act of grace that Christ poured out on our behalf. Even as believers we still sin daily in our own ways, maybe that's the whole idea of God's unwavering mercy and love for us all.. Is that there is no points system for who sinned the worst v.s who sinned the least. We know 1 sin is enough to make us imperfect and separate us from God.


and even though part of me is enraged by the evil I see, and I hope God punishes the worst offenders.. we're not commanded to seek venegance on them are we?? why???

IF they are our enemies and are not going to be forgiven and are going to hell it would make more sense that God would let us be wrathful and veangeful. UNLESS he had other plans for them..

Maybe this all ties into the mystery behind that verse in Isiah 45:7 -King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


and Romans 9- about how some vessels are created for honor and others for disaster and this is predestined. Maybe those who cannot believe and are in deep evil are not there because of their own lack of free will, but rather they are predestined to play out that role.. which in returns draws us closer to God and steers us to pursue righteousness more.. There is a mystery here....


what do you think?

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

If your faith is true, it translates itself into your day to day life. You can't just pay it lip service. It doesn't work that way.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

If your faith is true, it translates itself into your day to day life. You can't just pay it lip service. It doesn't work that way.

Did I say something contrary to that?

a reply to: freedom7

We have to be given our choice. The Shepard knows his sheep and they know Him. I contend that the sheep are from many flocks.

There were likely be some surprises for quite a few people.

As for predestination v. free will. I think the mystery is that God is not bound in space and time. We are. How can time exist and not exist? That is the mystery.

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7)

You don't see any Universalism in that do you?

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' (Mat 25:41)

Again, there is not a hint of universalism there.

Many other verses reveal the same.

originally posted by: ketsuko
There are far more verses that tell you that the only way to salvation is through Christ, and many of these are from Christ himself.

It is true that all shall be judged on that day, but none of us is worthy; God accepts only perfection. We need to come to the Father through Christ who can make us whole and perfect in the Father's eyes.

So explain to me how someone who actively turns from, denies and spits on Him can come to the Father through Him? It takes a certain humility to accept that saving grace.

So the ones quoted in the OP are wrong? How do you reconcile verses that say all of humanity is saved vs only those who follow certain guidelines are saved?

a reply to: Cuervo

Things change when we go into full context.

In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar—when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene— 2 during the high-priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4 As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:


“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.

5
Every valley shall be filled in,
every mountain and hill made low.
The crooked roads shall become straight,
the rough ways smooth.

6
And all people will see God’s salvation.’”[a]

7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.

11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”

13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.

14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”

He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”

15 The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Messiah. 16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” 18 And with many other words John exhorted the people and proclaimed the good news to them.

Luke 3: 1-18

This is the preaching of John the Baptist who is paving the way for Christ, telling the people the Messiah will come. As we see, the promise and offer is made to all, but by the end of the message, not all will be saved.

Christ is God's salvation, but not all will accept Him.

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 11: 28-32

This is another mystery of God's plan. The rejection of Christ by the Jews sent the Gospel and salvation to the Gentiles. This allowed God's mercy to go out to them/us. This has been the time of God's working among the Gentiles and salvation of the Gentiles while the hearts of the Jews have been hardened. But God has not turned away from the Jews entirely. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, then God will turn back to them and work with then during Jacob's troubles.

Our general state of disobedience has allowed God to work amongst us all and offer His mercy. However, just above is the teaching about braches being grafted in and shorn off.

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Romans 11: 14-24

Again, God brings you in and nourishes you, but he can just as easily prune you. It takes belief.

a reply to: ketsuko

But that is based on having the preface of us all "seeing his salvation". Since we all do not see his salvation, could this mean it's a decision made posthumously?

If a person possesses a high degree of discernment (something Christians seem to respect), that person will likely never be convinced by other humans of your god's salvation. Therefore it was never truly seen. The posthumous salvation is also what "the only way is through me" type of statements made by Jesus remind me of.

Now I have a serious question with zero rhetorical premise on my part: Is there anything in the bible stating that salvation must be earned while living in the physical form? It's something I've never thought of until this thread so the answer may be simple but I figured you were one of the right people to ask.

Biblically, Ketsuko and Murgy are right on this one, OP. There are many verses in the gospels alone that back them up. Christianity is an exclusive club, and there are rules for gaining access. Anyone outside is the walking dead, and headed for eternal damnation/separation/second death. Whichever your sect believes in.

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Timothy 4: 1-10

This is the only that comes really close to supporting the full contention of the OP and even it places a priority on those who believe. And even then, it could be said to be saying that God is the Savior of all in the sense that He saves those who actively believe in Him, but it could also be some support for the OP's position.

As I said, the number of times Christ alone stresses that salvation comes through Him outnumbers this.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
IMO, you can't read the bible from cover to cover and take it literally.

The Bible is to be taken literally unless the text in question is obviously symbolic.

The Bible DOES frequently employ allegory, such as in Gal.4:21-24.

But it also makes it perfectly clear when doing so.

"You're leaders are coming up with conclusions you would never come up with if you just read the Bible your self...many of us have come to conclusions that we didn't get from scripture, we were just told these things." (Francis Chan @ 15 min. point)

If you don't believe the Bible....fine...don't believe it. But don't suggest that one part should be taken allegory when another part of the Bible CLEARLY indicates that it isn't. I'm guessing you don't do that with other forms of literature, do you?

If you have a history book on George Washington, do you decide to read chapter 3 as an allegory, but the rest of it as fact simply because you don't want to believe the events of chapter 3 took place? If chapter 14 is believed to be historical---and it refers to the events of chapter 3 as historical....why would you believe chapter 3 to be allegory?

Is The Bible Literal Or Allegorical?

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word, at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.

The Golden Rule of Interpretation

Those holding to an allegorical interpretation of the Bible point to a variety of scriptures and use them as proof-texts for the claim that God intended for His Word to be interpreted allegorically, and as we shall see, many of these verses have been taken out of context or redefined so as to give the appearance of supporting the false allegorical mode of interpretation. www.scribd.com...

The sum and substance of this most important rule is that one should take every statement of the Scriptures at its plain face value, unless there are indications that a figurative or metaphorical meaning was intended by the original writer. In other words, one is to take the Scriptures as they are written and is not to attempt to read into the Sacred Writings his own ideas or the thoughts of men. Since this golden rule of interpretation is such a very important one, it becomes necessary for us to look at it more minutely.

If a person can take a plain passage of Scripture, close his eyes to its real meaning, and read into it a figurative or symbolic meaning, he will be forced to do the same thing with related passages—if he is logical. In doing this, he is forced to reconstruct large sections of the Scripture and to impose upon them a meaning foreign to that of the original writer.

When one has once adopted this method, one has no place to stop—short of a denial of the records and of forcing a meaning upon the Word of God contrary to all facts and reason. As we have seen above, the rationalistic critics have simply carried this spiritualizing process to its inevitable conclusion.

Modernism and rationalism are the logical outgrowth of forcing a figurative meaning upon a passage that is clearly literal. In the light of these facts we can see how very important it is for us to apply the golden rule of interpretation rigidly to every passage in the Word of God.

The Golden Rule of Interpretation

originally posted by: BO XIAN
In many dozens, hundreds of cases, THE LITERALISTS WERE ALWAYS PROVEN CORRECT as archeology uncovered more and more confirmation that the Bible was literally true in detail after detail.

Some things are literal AND symbolic, both/and. I don't think a great number of things in the Bible are primarily or only symbolic.

a reply to: Cuervo

OK, so you're saying that in order to believe ... you would need to SEE Jesus get crucified, be dead and then get up and walk around some before being lifted up into Heaven?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Cuervo

OK, so you're saying that in order to believe ... you would need to SEE Jesus get crucified, be dead and then get up and walk around some before being lifted up into Heaven?

Hah, no. What I was saying is that the average Joe not raised in a Christian family and who has a mind of discernment wouldn't just take the "good news" at face value. Why would he? It wouldn't make sense just to believe any of it if it wasn't enculturated into you.

For that average Joe, no salvation from Jesus was ever seen. Meaning, he was never convinced. For him to have seen Jesus's salvation, it would have to be after he is dead.

a reply to: freedom7

Luke 3:6- And ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God (KJV)

How did you get "all will be saved" from this verse?