The Gospel According to Laz

I remembered yesterday a thread from long ago, in which I laid out some ideas of mine about salvation, and concluded "...and that's the Gospel according to Laz." I cannot find it again, but decided to post a more through short essay.

The Gospel (Good News) According to Laz

It all begins, literally, with Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning [time] God [intelligence] created [energy] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter]. Besides having the things with which science is concerned, time, energy, space, matter, and intelligence, stated from the start, we see this very important omission, for God’s Word should be read, not only for what it says, but for what it does NOT say. It does not mention the creation of Hell – quite an omission if Hell actually exists. No, He only made the heaven and the earth. Thus, the creation is a hierarchy, God, heaven, earth, man – not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell with man as a prey between them. I see this as good news.

If there is a Hell, and if most of humanity will end there forever, as so many preachers say, God is not being honest with us. But wait – Jesus said in John 14:2 “…if it were not so, I would have told you.” Therefore, I take Genesis 1:1 at face value: God did not make Hell. Now in John 1:3, we see that if God didn’t make Hell, then no one else did either: “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” Bring all the theological arguments to bear that you care to, quote all the proof texts you know – there is no getting around this: God didn’t make Hell, and no else did. I see this as good news too.

If there is no Hell to go to, there is only Heaven (aka, the Kingdom of God). But how? Paul tells us, in I Timothy 4:10 “…we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe.” It is good to be a believer, but Paul, the apostle who never wrote of Hell, is saying that ALL are saved. Saved! Maybe not at this moment, maybe not in this life, maybe after being tossed into the Lake of Fire, but every last human will walk those streets of gold – eventually – and that’s good news!

Revelation 20:13 & 14 tell us that death and hell (the grave would be a better translation) give up their dead, and some are cast into the Lake of Fire – death and the grave are also tossed in. This is called the Second Death, but Revelation 22:15, at the very end of the Bible, describes the unholy still skulking outside the New Jerusalem. Are you confused? Me too, but let’s look ahead to “…the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father…he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (I Corinthians 15:24 – 26) At the end of the Revelation, Jesus is still reigning, but at the “end” Jesus gives the rulership back to His Father. At this time, death is destroyed. I ask you, how can anyone be dead at this point, let alone, in Hell? It cannot be, and that is good news!

The ultimate outcome comes quickly in I Corinthians 15:28, which states that all things are subject to Jesus, and Jesus is subject to the Father, so that “…God may be All in all.” As I stated about death, if God is going to become All in all, how can anyone, even one person, be dead and/or in Hell then? It cannot be – and that is the Gospel according to Laz.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

We need to straighten out the concepts first.

The word "hell" never appeared in the Bible. In the Bible it is "Sheol" in the Old Testament and Christ refers to it as "Gehenna". The Greeks translated "Gehenna" to correspond with their notion of "Hades".

In the Old Testament "Sheol" is the place of the dead. David's psalms speak of it often. It is a tricky question as to what this place meant to the ancient Hebrews. Samuel's spirit was summoned back at King Saul's request when he did not get a satisfactory answer from the Hebrew divination method of Urim and Thummim. He practised necromancy with a witch to bring back Samuel to let him know how the future would unfold.

"Gehenna" as used by Christ was a literal place outside Jerusalem where,

"In today's common use, the Valley of Hinnom, whether it corresponds to the old biblical meaning or not, is the name used for the valley surrounding Jerusalem's Old City, including Mount Zion from the west and south. It meets and merges with the Kidron Valley, the other one of the two principal valleys around the Old City, near the southeastern corner of the city",

and,

"In the Hebrew Bible, Gehenna was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and other Canaanite gods, including Moloch (or Molech), sacrificed their children by fire". (from Wikipedia).

Christ knew all that place's significance. Christ spoke most of the time in similes, metaphors, allegories, parables. In the same way as the Kingdom He describes as, "Like a mustard seed", He describes the fate of the unsaved as being the ultimate Godless place...Gehenna, which just so happens to be outside the Gates of The Holy City.

"Hell" is Germanic in origin. It has to do with Germanic mythology primarily and was adopted by the Anglo Saxons and eventually became the "Hell" of the English language.

Hades is the underworld of the Greeks. As Christianity entered their culture they translated the Bible according to their language and customs.

Being jocular, where are we supposed to be going if we are naughty? Is it the Greek underworld, the German Hell, the Hebrew underworld, Christ's Gehenna or John's Lake of Fire? Or perhaps the place that is like a mustard seed if we are good? Christ could be eclectic. He did not seem to like giving direct descriptions. It was always "like" or "as". I'm meaning that from a view point of admiration.

Take care, Buddy! All the best!

a reply to: Lazarus Short

This is where the idea of purgatory comes from. Which in the terms of cosmic justice makes more since then eternal damnation for making mistakes.

The only ones who I believe are in trouble of any kind of eternal damnation, would be those who literally worship demons. In this case one has gone past the realm of making mistakes and entered themselves into a Holy War against God.

If God condemns those who seek a Holy War against him by giving them what they asked for he could still be considered unconditionally loving. So unconditionally loving that he gives you exactly what you performed ritual sacrafices to receive.

This is how I see it. Most of us sin because we are stupid. But some take stupid to a another level. So their might be something worse for them.

Matthew 25
46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

What do you make of this quote from Jesus himself if punishment isn't eternal and all are saved? Jesus implies that the unrighteous will suffer forever without hope of redemption.

originally posted by: Revolution9
a reply to: Lazarus Short

We need to straighten out the concepts first.

The word "hell" never appeared in the Bible. In the Bible it is "Sheol" in the Old Testament and Christ refers to it as "Gehenna". The Greeks translated "Gehenna" to correspond with their notion of "Hades".

In the Old Testament "Sheol" is the place of the dead. David's psalms speak of it often. It is a tricky question as to what this place meant to the ancient Hebrews. Samuel's spirit was summoned back at King Saul's request when he did not get a satisfactory answer from the Hebrew divination method of Urim and Thummim. He practised necromancy with a witch to bring back Samuel to let him know how the future would unfold.

"Gehenna" as used by Christ was a literal place outside Jerusalem where,

"In today's common use, the Valley of Hinnom, whether it corresponds to the old biblical meaning or not, is the name used for the valley surrounding Jerusalem's Old City, including Mount Zion from the west and south. It meets and merges with the Kidron Valley, the other one of the two principal valleys around the Old City, near the southeastern corner of the city",

and,

"In the Hebrew Bible, Gehenna was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and other Canaanite gods, including Moloch (or Molech), sacrificed their children by fire". (from Wikipedia).

Christ knew all that place's significance. Christ spoke most of the time in similes, metaphors, allegories, parables. In the same way as the Kingdom He describes as, "Like a mustard seed", He describes the fate of the unsaved as being the ultimate Godless place...Gehenna, which just so happens to be outside the Gates of The Holy City.

"Hell" is Germanic in origin. It has to do with Germanic mythology primarily and was adopted by the Anglo Saxons and eventually became the "Hell" of the English language.

Hades is the underworld of the Greeks. As Christianity entered their culture they translated the Bible according to their language and customs.

Being jocular, where are we supposed to be going if we are naughty? Is it the Greek underworld, the German Hell, the Hebrew underworld, Christ's Gehenna or John's Lake of Fire? Or perhaps the place that is like a mustard seed if we are good? Christ could be eclectic. He did not seem to like giving direct descriptions. It was always "like" or "as". I'm meaning that from a view point of admiration.

Take care, Buddy! All the best!

Thanks for the input, it was helpful! Of course, I already knew most of what you say in your post, but I can now make a closer connection with Jesus' Gehenna and the dogs, etc outside the New Jerusalem. No, He does not tell us all the details, but I take heart in the ultimate outcome: God as All in all.

EDIT: BTW, "Hell" is also a verb. In the old days, if you lacked a root cellar, you would bury fruits or veggies in a trench between layers of straw, below the local frost line. It was "helling" them.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Lazarus Short

This is where the idea of purgatory comes from. Which in the terms of cosmic justice makes more since then eternal damnation for making mistakes.

The only ones who I believe are in trouble of any kind of eternal damnation, would be those who literally worship demons. In this case one has gone past the realm of making mistakes and entered themselves into a Holy War against God.

If God condemns those who seek a Holy War against him by giving them what they asked for he could still be considered unconditionally loving. So unconditionally loving that he gives you exactly what you performed ritual sacrafices to receive.

This is how I see it. Most of us sin because we are stupid. But some take stupid to a another level. So their might be something worse for them.

I know where you are coming from, but I know that God's Law (as given to Moses) never prescribes any punishment worse than simple death. God never threatened anyone with eternal damnation. Tell me, can taking stupid to any level overcome the will of God - to become All in all?

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Matthew 25
46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

What do you make of this quote from Jesus himself if punishment isn't eternal and all are saved? Jesus implies that the unrighteous will suffer forever without hope of redemption.

Just as "Hell" is almost always better translated as "the grave," "pit," or "the unseen;" "eternal" is usually better rendered as "age-long." Some quality time spent with a good translation and a good concordance can change your theology. Laz used to believe in Hell.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

So the righteous will not be sent to eternal life, only an "age-long" life? The same word for eternal is used for both the reward and punishment length in this verse.

If the unrighteous aren't sent to everlasting punishment then you must also concede that the righteous will not be sent to everlasting life, only temporary punishment/life. As I said, the word used for both the reward and punishment are the same. You can't say one means forever and the other temporary.

Thanks Laz.The basics of this thread cannot be said loud or often enough....and on that note and new note(and it's long note..as usual...)

As Laz pointed out eternal is translated from the Greek word aion which means age or age lasting.Yahoshua did not necessarily mean “time” since time/space is a dimension of the physical ream(universe).It is in effect a metaphor as the majority of everything Yahoshua said was because it was of a life of another “world” or realm also translated from aion.It cannot be known except to experience it.

The word punishment is the greek word kolasis which means correction.The agenda of the Christian theology made it into punishment(and unjust punishment at that).There is a HUGE difference.Punishment is completely devoid of any “correction” especially a punishment of eternal torture and suffering.That should be a clear sign that this does not meaning punishment (torture of suffering) for infinite time(eternal).

The context which Yahoshua is speaking in is in complete contradiction to Christian theology( which it always is).Yahosua is not speaking of the “evil” (unbelievers) as Christianity does he is speaking of the idolatrous religious (Christianity is the main group because it has perverted the truth the most).It is the the 5 foolish virgin,the hoarder man with one talent,the goats,It is stated very clearly:

“Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

The everlasting[eternal] fire is the same as what John saw in Revelation 20:14 “a lake of fire”and of course it isn’t literal nor is it for punishment but for correction(purging).Those that are cast into it are tormented which is translated from the Greek word basanizo which means means to test with a touchstone for the refining of fine metals like silver and gold.Some how that word tun into torture.These are very obviously metaphors for something that doesn’t have “words” for.More importantly these Christian theology doctrines are foisted upon Yahoshua yet go complete against everything about him.

First his “name“(nature and character) is Yahoshua which means Yahweh(the creator God the Father) IS deliverance/salvation.In other words the deliver didn’t come to kill and destroy and punish unjustly but to bring life for a new world (age).Of course that term (new age) has been co-opted as a doctrine by the new age/light people,ascenders,gnostics etc ect.

The point is Yahoshua and (eventually) the disciples only preach(proclaim by statement..not teach) Yahoshua….the GOOD new of the deliverance of all of creation (including ALL of mankind) from Hades which means the realm of death (the grave) and the realm of imperception (mans nature of religion).

Christianity and all of it’s sister sects and break offs preach a completely different message.Christianity is bad news of believe such and such doctrine(which few can agree on the specifics but are specific about the outcome) OR be punished by torture and suffering FOREVER and ever (twice as long as forever apparently).

Some of the other variation of what is believed of what “Jesus Christ” said and did is about doing good works or ascending by personal enlightenment by performing religious acts(meditation, praying, astral projection etc etc) Yet Yahoshua didn’t say ANY of that.

He said very clearly “I am the way the truth and the life” no man can come to the Father[Life] without me.He did not outline a clear methodology in fact he spoke in parables(metaphors) and none (including the disciples ) had a clue what he meant.If he was a teaching the people he wasn’t a great teacher but the worse teacher ever!

Even the disciples questioned his methods after he told the parable of the seed sown in the soils because he told them …….there is no method!I speak in parables so the people WON”T understand and the truth will be hidden.He then told the disciples… it has been “given” to ONLY you to understand the “mysteries” of the “kingdom of your heavens(their mind).He then preceded to tell the disciples only in private, more parables which they were equally clueless about.It was only at the last supper he told the disciples ONLY you will shortly know what I was talking about all this time(enter the kingdom of your heavens).

It is clear example like this where Christianity (and all religion that believe in Jesus in any form) are 100% incorrect.The majority of the times Yahoshua is only addressing the disciples yet religion like Christianity think Yahoshua is speaking to them!That is very presumptuous and clearly not the case if the scriptures were read with more than a cursory religious or the opposite… the vivesectioning twisting of the scriptures into “bible” theology religious rhetoric to make it void of any meaning.

I would go much farther than the gospel according to Laz.I agree there is no eternal punishment of hell but that is not the REAL Good news.The Good news is everything (creation) “will” be delivered from Hades(nothing has been yet except Yahoshua) and will be born anew into LIFE.It will not be the life of “death” that is of the physical realm where EVERYTHING is born to die.That is not “real“ life at all ….it is the valley of the shadows of death(Hades).

This new life is not in a “place” which is physical realm construct.Yahoshua clearly stated the kingdom(the rule of authority) of [the] heavens is having rule of authority over your mind..which is a state of “knowing” the truth.It was given in the physical realm “only” to the disciples(the chosen few) by the creator God through Yahoshua.Yahoshua clearly stated to some Jew that “believed” in him.

If you continue in my word[thoughts of the free mind] you are “truly” my disciple and then you will”know” and then truth will make you free.”

The truth does not make anyone free…. the truth has to be “known” for the person to be free and it can only be known when a person “enters” the kingdom of their heavens.Simon-Peter had this experience when the father “revealed” the truth to him(Yahoshua is the son/seed the christ of the creator God) and right after words Simon Peter enter into his religious carnal mind (satan).This entering is by the narrow path to the narrow gate(Matthew 7) but first a person is on the wide path(their religion) which leads to the wide gate of destruction(living death…imperception of truth)

In others words their old nature of religion (belief through faith) must DIE.That is the deliverance from Hades the realm of imperception. Some call this enlightenment or ascension or awakening or born again but those are ALL acts of belief in faith (wide path) cannot make anyone free from their religion but MORE bound by it!!It is a vicious cycle of self delusion to believe you are free when you are anything but.

This is why none understood anything Yahoshua said.He was not teaching how to be good or ascension or enlightenment etc etc… he was proclaiming by stating the way things worked.Anyone trying to “follow” Jesus teachings that is being intellectually honest will see that it is impossible to achieve “knowing” by religion(belief in faith works).Firstly because Yahoshua talks in metaphors the majority of the time.Secondly because Yahoshua clearly stated none but the disciple would understand ANYthing he said in parables(the majority of everything he said that was written).

cont'd

The fact is none have ever done ”everything“ Yahoshua said(including the disciples and they “knew” him the best) or even close.That should be a HUGE clue he wasn’t teaching the people a new religion of works belief in faith.Yahoshua clearly stated he “knew” mankind and that was impossible because of their nature of religion.

The only way for the “many” of mankind to “enter” the kingdom of their heavens(be freed from the religion of their mind) was to be delivered from it by death…and that’s exactly what has and will happen…. every person and thing that will ever live in the physical realm will positively die regardless of a persons religious fantasy.

That is where any inkling of details of the Good news by Yahoshua stops.The reality is you will die…then you will be delivered(born anew) from death AND from the imperception”death”(your nature of religion) and enter into the kingdom of your heavens and THEN enter the Kingdom of the creator God (LIFE).Yahoshua gives no method on how a person can accomplish that because there is NO method however he does state very clearly the person has zero to do with their deliverance salvation because…Yahoshua is the way, the truth and the life and NONE come to the father except through Yahoshua.

This is the Good news the religious mind cannot know.It creates religious fantasy like a supernatural being (Satan and demons) who are trying to “steal” their “souls”… and drag them down to hell etc etc.That is more akin to a video game than reality.The religious state of mind takes a multitude of forms and NONE of them are truth because the religious state of mind cannot know truth .A person has to enter the kingdom of their heavens and the only WAY to do that is by the power of the creator God(mashiach…messiah…christ) in TRUTH to enter LIFE..the kingdom of the creator God.

This is the Good news Yahoshua and the disciples preached.They were not “Christians” in the least.Yahoshua sternly warned the disciples of the Christians and Christianity (and ALL religion) when he stated:

“Do not be deceived for many will come in my name and say they are christ and will deceive many.”

This is the damning(judgment…crisis…turning point) of Christianity.None of Christianity knows Yahoshua was speaking of Christians not heathens or other religions yet this statement is a clear indictment of ALL Christianity.I have nothing against Christians.They are as corrupt as anyone else(but there are MANY more of them especially in the US) it is what they believe that is damnable. It is the biggest perversion there is.

The most perverse doctrine of Christianity(the majority of all of the 4,000 sects) is of the eternal punishment(or annihilation) of HELL.It is the anthesis of the Good news.Yahoshua called it blasphemy of the holy spirit that will not be forgiven(The Greek word aphesis….which means freed from bondage) in this age(the physical realm) nor the next(the realm of death).That is how off Christianity is with their doctrine.Yahoshua is making statement right and left about the perversions of Christianity and none of Christianity can see it!

Fortunately there will come a time when hell believers will be a minority.( because most of them will be dead) and the world will “hear” the truth of the Good news and not the bad news perversions of Christianity.

The Good news is ALL of creation will be delivered from Hades.It doesn’t get any better than that and it is IMPOSSIBLE to believe.It can only be “known” by experience…happy death to all.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

No bits & pieces - you've got to read the whole thing. Look again - after the "age-long" ages, comes The End when God will become All in all. Now that lasts forever.

a reply to: Rex282

Thank you, Rex, you say it better than I do. Now my eyes are opened more about what is so very wrong with Christianity, though I'm not yet ready to say I'm not one. You know, there are groups of Christians called "No Hellers."

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
a reply to: Rex282

Thank you, Rex, you say it better than I do. Now my eyes are opened more about what is so very wrong with Christianity, though I'm not yet ready to say I'm not one. You know, there are groups of Christians called "No Hellers."

Thanks Laz,
As I said before the false doctrine of the eternal punishment of hell needs to be disputed fervently so thank you for all of your efforts…. you are doing a good job.

I haven’t heard of a group called “No Hellers” though I do know some.Unfortunately they still have the leaven of Christianity and in some cases(many) have become more militant.

Christianity is just modern Phariseeism in the extreme.It acts holy on the outside but is full of dead mans bones.It’s doctrines are the leaven that leavens the whole lump of dough.Those that believe it are moths drawn to a flame.It is inevitable.They are not damned just blinded to truth.

The crucifixion Yahoshua spoke of and the lake of fire John wrote of are the death to a persons religion.Fortunately the creator God is the one doing the crucifying and refining or a person would never submit.The “My God” of a persons religion must die because it is only an idol of the mind.Christianity is the worse offender because it perverts the truth of Yahoshua.