All people are sinners.

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Benderisfunny
The Christian faith starts on the basis that all people are sinners.
But that doesn't have to lead into "all people end up in hell". Other outcomes are possible.

However, if you expect Christians to behave
like Christ, you will be disappointed
because humans are humans and
will make mistakes.
Christians can only do their best to live
up to what they should be.
Then ask forgiveness when they fail,
pick themselves up and try again to
live life according to the words of Christ.
They are not perfect, never will be, and
if you expect that of them, you will be
sorely disappointed.

Why did Christ, who was without sin, tell us that we CAN BECOME LIKE HIM? The only way to become like Christ is to overcome sin by listening to Christ.

Not only were we told that we COULD BECOME LIKE CHRIST, we were told that we could do even greater things, because he is within us.

Jesus did not say follow me, sin no more, and be Like me, and not provide us a way to overcome sin.

Fallen is ignorant not perpetual imperfection. I expect myself to be Like Christ. I expect my brothers to stop causing others to suffer by sinning against them.

a reply to: Benderisfunny

As a christian I don't believe you go to hell for sinning. You're right, we're all sinners, so we'd all end up in hell. The belief is that God sent his son to die for our sins. In the Old Testament one would have to make sacrifices to atone for their sins. In the New Testament God sacrificed his son. If we accept that sacrifice then we are saved. The bible places no additional caveats on this, only mankind does. Should you WANT to be more like God? Sure, in the sense that you should avoid sinning.
What perplexes me is that, while there's certainly much I don't agree with in Christianity, I don't really meet people who identify themselves as being Christian who judge other people any more than anybody else. Christians are humans and, while they shouldn't judge others, it's something we ALL do. For example, every person who says "most Christians..." That's a purely speculative and judgmental statement. When I hear someone saying that I immediately know what follows isn't worth listening to. Condemning an entire demographic because one speculates an entire demographic condemns others seems a bit hypocritical.
That being said, there are also plenty of other current social issues I don't agree with... but so what? I'm not perfect. I use profanity. I drink. I smoke. I'm not proud of any of those things, and I'm certainly not saying they're the same thing as anything else... but my faults prevent me from treating someone else in a negative manner for what I might perceive to be negative actions on their part.
I wouldn't say "most people," because I'm sure I'm only hearing a vocal minority, but if one's response to something negative is to react negatively... you might still be a child.

a reply to: intrptr

I can agree with part of what you are saying, although, as was mentioned before, sin is relative to your religious point of view. To a person who is completely secular in their beliefs, murder is bad, raping is bad, but I could care less about worshipping graven images or idols and such. My religious icon is the fender stratocaster, as I worship the things done with it since its inception. Others may prefer Gibsons, or Taylor, maybe even schecter, but I won't start a war over it! I welcome them all!

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Do you have to cause suffering? The elimination of suffering is the elimination of sin from ones life. The elimination of sin is Spiritual Perfection.

We can't become physically perfect, or mentally perfect genius, but we can become spiritually perfect through Love and Reason.

Spiritual Perfection is simply do no harm to yourself, do no harm to others. The one who practices do no harm to others is practicing spiritual perfection.

I am pro gay rights and have done an entire thread on it.

I said I ignore the sinful nature. Sometimes I get lonely and think, hey I could go to the bar get drunk, meet a nice lady and have fun.

This is the sinful nature telling me to enjoy the flesh. When I was younger I would listen to such a voice.

Now that I have matured I realize that for me a night out like that leaves me empty. Emptiness is suffering, so I ignore the thought that would have lead to suffering.

You really missed the point of what I was trying to say. If it was confusing I apologize.

originally posted by: Benderisfunny
a reply to: grandmakdw

See, I think you have this backwards. I could care less if everyone is a sinner, because I k now by the biblical definition everyone is. I am pointing out that most Christians I come into contact with are expecting even those outside their faith to adhere to the same scriptural codes that they do. This book is not for me. I have read the bible. Both testaments, and it is an interesting story. I guess I should say that I was physically forced by the pentecostals to read the bible. One of my worst experiences was a beating I got for not falling down when the preacher but his palm on my forehead. Part was for embarrising my parents in front of the congregation, part was to beat Satan out of me. So I guess what I am saying is that does it matter if younask forgiveness for something you never stop doing? (IE: judging and beating a kid for questioning a belief system.) So I say ask away for forgiveness, but if god is real, seems like he might expect people to become better instead of just coin the same thin over and over again. That is the reasoning behind the thought that if there is a hell almost all of us will be in it.

I am so sorry these things happened to you.

Your experience was evil, and horrendous. The people involved will go to hell and Christ will make certain of it, if they die saying that what they did was right, because it was not.

Your personal experience will make it difficult for you to believe this,
but your parents and your preacher are not typical of the majority of Christians.
Nor is what they did Christian, nor is what they did acceptable to Christ.

I can understand how a horrific and evil experience like this
will imprint in your brain that all Christians are like this.
But they are not and most would decry as evil to the core,
what your parents and preacher did to you.
Christ himself condemns actions like these with His words.

The imprint on your brain from these experiences are deep
and I understand that .
But please don't generalize that all Christians are like that,
or that Christ approved of what your parents did.

It is like being abused or bullied by someone of a different race
over and over. Then generalizing that all people of that race
are abusive bullies from ones personal experience. Which
is understandable to believe, but still not true.

I can not apologize for your parents or preacher,
because only they can truly apologize for it.
But I can unequivocally state that they are the sinners
and that without heavy repentance on their part
they will go to hell for it, and justice will be done.

a reply to: Benderisfunny

I can agree with part of what you are saying, although, as was mentioned before, sin is relative to your religious point of view.

I don't need a church or law book to tell me its wrong to smack old ladies up side the head. I already know that.

I guess when we are young we do stuff wrong and we are taught, now junior, don't smack grandma up side the head. So I did learn that somewhere…

And they learned it somewhere. too. They didn't say, if you do that the government will punish you , or God will punish you. They taught me not to smack grandma because that is just plain awful.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Just putting it into the context the old man at guitar center was yelling about. If all sinners go to hell, as he was yelling, and we are all sinners, by his logic we all go to hell. There may be other outcomeoutcomes, but that is not what he was yelling, and not what the church tried to beat into me. Understand, I don't even believe in an afterlife. To me, we are walking fertilizer until we die. We do what we do, then its over. Just like fish, or or trees.

a reply to: grandmakdw

I know its not everyone, and I have become a better person for forsaking that group of people. Again, does no one see that I always say most, and not all, and only compare to my experience? I realize there are good people who are christian. There are good people who are of all faiths. Its just hard to reconcile with personal experience.

Yeah! I sin everyday. According to ahem, "the bible" And the Christian, Faith- flyers! And I love it! Sleep Great. I consume myself with SiN daily, No stopping or slowing down We ride this ride one time and I'm playin' in all the games I can before I roll out. Guilt? pfffffft! My life! I don't answer to nada but me! I live the way I want. I do good I feel good. My minds focused on my daily grind and whats mine! If I hit dirt at the end, oh well! If I meet some dude after I check out. So be it. I'm sure I don't want to ride with him anyway. I live now! Don't bother with distractions, like whats going to happen after, That will consume your here and now! Not me. I'm rolling with the current. Not next week or next year or tryna live in the shadow of an imaginary friend!

Don't, muddy up your life and thoughts with Christian sin???? Stay focused and believe in yourself, Think what you want, You got it! The law of attraction, positive thinking, and guts! How you living?

Stay LIfted!

a reply to: Benderisfunny

The Christians teach fallen. Because they refuse to believe that the perfect spirit in them and can lead them to overcome sin, they live in fear of sin.

To the fallen Christians sin is always at the doorstep waiting to take hold. Fear causes their irrational behavior. I am sorry you were raised by the doctrine of fear.

Just remember Christ is without sin and the fallen are not like the risen. Trust that the risen one has provided a path of Love and Reason that says I CAN OVERCOME the causes of suffering.

The fallen pastor needs your money. The risen are filled by God with all they need. It is better to live amongst the risen then the fallen.

The risen have no reason to fear what they obey. The risen have choosen Love and Reason over the path of suffering.

a reply to: C21H30O2I

I am living great! Wife, kid, school, work, music and literature. I agree with you all the way! As long as I am not out hurting others, or breaking laws, well, maybe one, whats e difference?

a reply to: Benderisfunny

Jesus taught not to judge the sins and short-comings of others, but to instead practice introspection and inner character building:

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

- Matthew 7:1-5

When a mob gathered to stone an adulteress, Jesus stopped them by challenging their own short-comings:

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

- John 8:7

Furthermore, Jesus even taught that sin is an avoidable choice. He did so by telling people to stop sinning. If the cessation of sin were impossible, he would not have given such commands:

Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

- John 8:11

Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”

- John 5:14

a reply to: Isurrender73

I am very glad that some can take comfort in the belief that there is one greater than they who will do the things you say. Any suffering I experience is because I either did it to myself, or because someone caused harm to me. I do not feel I need a greater being to help me decide how to live right. I am already doing it...like the other guy said, there is enough to do while you're alive to worry about what happens after the final dirt nap...
Geez...hope that doesn't sound to condescending or self righteous...totally not my intention...

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: Benderisfunny

Furthermore, Jesus even taught that sin is an avoidable choice. He did so by telling people to stop sinning. If the cessation of sin were impossible, he would not have given such commands:


Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

- John 8:11

Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”

- John 5:14

Amen, there is indeed a narrow path that leads to the end of suffering.

I sin all the time because I love Jesus. If we don't sin then Jesus died for nothing.

I use a loophole. I sin, then I go to church every Sunday to ask for forgiveness. God then tells me I'm forgiven, and I come out clean from the church.

I then repeat everything.

a reply to: Sahabi

I understand what you are saying, I just seem to be dodging more stones than I am throwing. Not really on here, but in a town I live in that has more churches than any other city I've lived in or visited. In the eyes of people I have dealt with, I am a de facto Satan worshipper because I believe in neither. I looked out my front door, and I can see 3 different churches in one city block. The bible belt. Right in the buckle. I know I am not perfect, and I have not allowed anyone to die for my sinsat my request. Let me be judged if that's the case...

a reply to: danielsil18

I believe, in religious terms, this would be viewed as sophistry. Not that I care...I want everyone to think and believe the way they want, just like I do...

originally posted by: Benderisfunny
a reply to: Isurrender73

I am very glad that some can take comfort in the belief that there is one greater than they who will do the things you say. Any suffering I experience is because I either did it to myself, or because someone caused harm to me. I do not feel I need a greater being to help me decide how to live right. I am already doing it...like the other guy said, there is enough to do while you're alive to worry about what happens after the final dirt nap...
Geez...hope that doesn't sound to condescending or self righteous...totally not my intention...

No, we are saying the same thing. You are using logic. I call that listening to the voice of Love and Reason. If you are not the cause of suffering then we are more alike than different.

I have a spiritual connection that can only be had if you believe in such a connection. But the one who overcomes suffering by logic will have faith in themselves as I now have faith in myself.

a reply to: Isurrender73

I really like what you have said. Makes me feel better to come into contact with people like you. Thanks for understanding where I am coming from!!!!

a reply to: Benderisfunny

I'm still right because I believe it.