Why do some believers say they're not of the world/flesh, but complain about homosexuality?

Complaining about homosexual intercourse is a matter of the flesh, something physical. Complaining about homosexuals not reproducing is a matter of the flesh, something physical. Why is someone who claims to be born of Spirit and not of the world, seeking heavenly treasures and not treasures of this world, so concerned about such matters of the flesh?

For all of those claiming to be "not of the flesh/world" but "born again in spirit", have you overcome lust completely to live a celibate life as you call homosexuals to do, or is it just hypocrisy? Trying to force your religious views of marriage on others, trying to force circumcision, trying to claim that a nation of this world is founded on your religion... these all seem like worldly matters (political even!)

Strange how nature is "pure" and holds Laws (evolution) when it comes to heterosexual lust leading to reproduction, then that is used as a claim that nature is "against" sinful homosexuals even though evolution supposedly doesn't exist, and nature is supposedly sinful itself (in a fallen state due to a talking snake's deception).

i think at this point it's settled and we can move on.
It's been made legal in america, people can cry about it all they want, but i feel the "battle" is kinda over.
As for people with religious concerns, look at it this way:
God wanted us to have slaves, it's in the book.
We got rid of slavery, and god has not thrown a temper tantrum about it.
Maybe just maaaaybe we should give this omnipotent being a little bit of benefit of the doubt and not assume he's a jerk.

a reply to: arpgme

Truth is, people just use Christianity as an excuse to judge and condemn others who are different to themselves. Being prejudice against gay people (or however) is an attempt to feel more superior and has nothing to really do with there spiritual beliefs.

The bibles just as much against fornicating as it is against same sex relationships. But you rarely hear about modern day christians ranting on about how evil fornicators are, or refusing to validate marriage certificates because a couple were sexually active before they got married.

Bunch of hypocrites.

I personally don't care much about same sex marriage, to be honest. But it infuriates me that christians are so petty that they would even care how others choose to live there life and even try to actively prevent it.

a reply to: arpgme

Because some people are control freaks and want to tell you how to live based on a book written by men.

The more they tell me gay is wrong, the more inclined I am to understand the truth that the opposite is the case.

The more they tell me weed is bad.....well you get the picture.

What i find funny is they always go on about sodomy between two men...im sure these same people have absolutely NO problem with 2 pretty girls kissing and getting it on..Hypocrisy at its finest

I dnt know, it's all fair and above board. If they want to do it, they can do it. The homosexual who wants a church wedding is the one I have a problem with

"because the bible told me so"

why think when you can follow?


Christianity was just a very clever ruse started some thousands of years back to control the stupid masses, and it condemns things that are different because it's easy for a small mind to get behind hating another person, group, or idea just because it's different. Especially if they believe blindly whatever their "master" tells them to.

It was super effective, and it paved the way for the sick world we now live in where the masses willingly support the few in their quest for global domination. Now that it's run its course, it'd be a nice time for it to be put to rest- but we all know it wont happen, because now we've got a huge portion of the population indoctrinated so deeply into this stupidity that it's not possible for their minds to let go.

the bible told those people to hate those other people, so they'll do it. That's all it is.

originally posted by: Xturmn8
I dnt know, it's all fair and above board. If they want to do it, they can do it. The homosexual who wants a church wedding is the one I have a problem with

True. I've never understood why anyone would want their marriage ceremony performed by a religion that hates them, and condemns them to "hell".

a reply to: arpgme

If we are to turn away from the worldly, which you clearly also advocate given the nature of some of your posts, why are you defending the worldly?

Why do you allow yourself to be dragged down into the world of the gross sexual?

Why do you confuse one type of love with agape? It should be self-evident to you that they are very different things.

a reply to: ketsuko

This thread is not about me, but the questions I have for fundamentalists who holds the beliefs mentioned in the Original Post.

I don't want to bring this thread off-topic/distract from the original point.

a reply to: arpgme

JESUS

a reply to: ketsuko

Why do you confuse one type of love with agape? It should be self-evident to you that they are very different things.

Are you saying that only opposite sex couples can experience agape? Or, is agape only experience by people who aren't having sex with each other, and ALL sexual expression of love lies outside the definition of agape?

I really don't understand what you're trying to say?

Most Christians I know care not what you do. They do not want to hear about your particular sins at all . Merely in their view you have committed what they call sin. Its not really a matter of in the flesh/world as everyone exists there. It is a natter of taking up those sins that surrounds us in the flesh/world. They realize everyone has sinned and will continue to do so in one form or the other. Seeking forgiveness is the key.

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with any religion atm

a reply to: Gothmog

Freedom of Expression/Religion

If they are free to preach bigotry, then gay people are free to express themselves.

If everyone is a sinner, then why do gay people get almost all of the intolerance instead of liars, drinkers, or those who work on Saturday/Sabbath? Or if Jesus already died for all sins (human sacrifice), why condemn others at all?

It's still hypocrisy...

a reply to: IShotMyLastMuse

The battle is not over, Marriage was one small step towards equality. we still need federal protection, 31 states allow GLBTQ+ people to be discriminated against in the workplace and also denied services, adoption, blood donation, housing, property..

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: Gothmog

Freedom of Expression/Religion

If they are free to preach bigotry, then gay people are free to express themselves.

If everyone is a sinner, then why do gay people get almost all of the intolerance instead of liars, drinkers, or those who work on Saturday/Sabbath? Or if Jesus already died for all sins (human sacrifice), why condemn others at all?

It's still hypocrisy...

How do you know we don't? Do you actually ever go where you can find out, or do you simply judge based on the national commentary of the moment? Let's also not mention selective hearing ... too late, I just did. You want to accuse Christians of picking and choosing, but there was this bit about removing the plank in thine own eye I believe.

Jesus died for all sins, yes, but in order to take Him up on that sacrifice you have to meet Him halfway by acknowledging your own sins and desiring to repent. If you refuse to acknowledge what you do in your life as sin, no matter who you are or what you do, then His sacrifice is meaningless.

Not one of us is worthy or sinless. Not one, and simply asking to be saved one day does not mean we walk without sin from then on. It is a constant process. So yes, there can be and are gay Christians. I have never said otherwise, but they have an extremely difficult path to walk.

a reply to: arpgme

This is a great topic, and it is the crux of the problem: heterosexual fundamentalists vs. homosexuality. In my opinion, heterosexual fundamentalists have a problem with their own sexual acts. They offset the shame they feel over their sexual behavior (lust etc) by finding a subject and target that can represent their own sexual misgivings, their own sexual SHADOW. The homosexual target is the perfect villain.

There are plenty of members of the gay community that are perfectly chaste, or that do not choose to conduct themselves licentiously. This is a fact that is frequently overlooked. Many members of the gay community are celibate, and very very careful about how they conduct themselves erotically, intimately, emotionally etc.

Heterosexual fundamentalists in contrast, fully knowing the difference between intimacy and licentiousness, nonetheless proceed with most licentious behavior: Married Christians do a number of things in their bedrooms that would never be condoned by Scripture!

Similarly, basic non church going heterosexuals, display sexual conduct that is likewise strongly licentious: Go to hetero clubs, go to hetero parties, go to hetero film and television, go to hetero music videos (music videos are really strong and racey), there is nothing chaste or proper about heterosexual behavior there, and it certainly does not occur for the sake of "pro-creating; or for the sake of honouring "The Father".

Scripture is very explicit about avoiding the failings of the Flesh: because the objective is to learn and understand the virtues of the Spirit.. the immaterial of us. What are the virtues of the Spirit? Modesty, humility, kindness, prudence, being slow to anger, and these are all virtues that many individuals in the gay community possess. In fact, there are plenty of members of the Gay community who follow and understand honouring the virtues of the Spirit so deeply, that they even become monks. Serious ones.


I become tired of these assumptions: that Gay community members are somehow not synonymous with Scripture and it's teachings,
when they are actually very synonymous, and even virtuously so.

The assumption that members of Fundamentalists communities are inherently "the good," when many fundamentalists are abusive, hostile, polluted persons that have a great deal of work to conduct on their person, on their own character, and on their own spiritual flowering. These people are not necessarily examples of "the good".

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: arpgme

If we are to turn away from the worldly, which you clearly also advocate given the nature of some of your posts, why are you defending the worldly?

Why do you allow yourself to be dragged down into the world of the gross sexual?

Why do you confuse one type of love with agape? It should be self-evident to you that they are very different things.

I am not so sure that he is actually defending the worldy.. he is saying that heterosexual fundamentalists over-focus or have their minds so polluted by the worldly, that they have lost sight of spiritual observance and spiritual focus. The fundamentalists' need to cleanse their lens, and re-observe, focusing on the virtues of the Spirit, instead of observing only the misgivings of the flesh, for their own good.

Let me offer you an interesting "gross" example: People who eat too much, are given over to the flesh excessively. Their deadly sin being: Gluttony. Do we see many Christian American fundamentalists complaining about that "gross" "wordly" anomally..? Of course not.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: arpgme

Why do you confuse one type of love with agape? It should be self-evident to you that they are very different things.

I do not think he is confusing sensuous love, with agape.. I do think fundamentalists have that problem though.

Scripture asks us to focus on the virtues of the spirit..and to express loving kindness to one another.. I am not so sure fundamentalists are necessarily able do or follow either..

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: Gothmog

Freedom of Expression/Religion

If they are free to preach bigotry, then gay people are free to express themselves.

If everyone is a sinner, then why do gay people get almost all of the intolerance instead of liars, drinkers, or those who work on Saturday/Sabbath? Or if Jesus already died for all sins (human sacrifice), why condemn others at all?

It's still hypocrisy...

How do you know we don't? Do you actually ever go where you can find out, or do you simply judge based on the national commentary of the moment? Let's also not mention selective hearing ... too late, I just did. You want to accuse Christians of picking and choosing, but there was this bit about removing the plank in thine own eye I believe.

Jesus died for all sins, yes, but in order to take Him up on that sacrifice you have to meet Him halfway by acknowledging your own sins and desiring to repent. If you refuse to acknowledge what you do in your life as sin, no matter who you are or what you do, then His sacrifice is meaningless.

Not one of us is worthy or sinless. Not one, and simply asking to be saved one day does not mean we walk without sin from then on. It is a constant process. So yes, there can be and are gay Christians. I have never said otherwise, but they have an extremely difficult path to walk.

Yes. Very good post.

When we turn to Christ and receive His forgiveness, we experience a heart change. Forgiveness is not cheap, and it does not excuse the sin that separated us from God. It cost God everything to offer us the cleansing that pronounces us righteous before Him.

Rather than continue in the self-centered path, the forgiven can walk in God’s path. A move toward God is a move toward righteousness, purity, and holy living. We cannot experience the transforming power of forgiveness without being forever changed.

When we meet Jesus, sin no longer holds its fatal attraction. Grace changes things.

We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” .

When we are born again, the power of the Holy Spirit breaks the power that sin once had over us.

Once we lived only to please ourselves, but when we have been forgiven, our motivation changes. We now live to please God.