UK news F-35 fighter makers leap to its defence after it loses dogfight to 1970s jet

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: TrueBrit

No I know which is the point im making.

The F-35 certainly has its uses. But our RAF has been slashed and cut and its possible the F-35 will be the ONLY fighter in the RAF by 2030.

Unlikely in reality I think, but let's run with that if it pleases you!

No you would not send a destroyer to do the job of a rib boat but if you politicians have gone full retard and sold all the rib boats off and refused to build new ones then you would.

Well, no. You wouldn't. You would simply do a different job, with the same result. Where a rib boat would drop troops at a beach, in order to assault a position on land, or take an enemy vessel intact, you would merely use the guns on board the destroyer to flatten everything within a mile wide template around the target. The target still dies, but dies differently.

Similarly, an F35 does its work at huge range, from a position of near untouchability. Because it can kill at such extended range, repeatedly, accurately, and without threat to itself, it CAN achieve kills that other aircraft cannot. Because of that, it can do the same amount of work as other aircraft, but using entirely different tactics. So, it does not matter that it cannot dogfight. It is a game changing aircraft, not designed to operate like other fighters, but to control the airspace in a manner the likes of which are incomprehensible to us, because we are used to air war involving tight turns and the Top Gun theme.

The F-35 is a capable fighter Im NOT denying that. My worry is can a RAF of only F-35 and a few Euro fighters be viable? Should the UK not be planning to replace the Typhoon with a F-22 analogue to complement the F-35?

That's the thing though... It's not JUST a capable fighter. In its fully kitted form, this thing will turn air war on its head. The traditional meaning of, and process of prosecuting aerial war, will change beyond recognition when these aircraft become the norm, rather than the exception. I very much doubt that dogfighting will continue to be a part of fighter pilot parlance for very long once these things have been fully phased in, and the planes they are replacing phased out. Going up against an F35 in an actual combat scenario, and expecting to ever be able to close to dogfighting range with it, would see squadrons just falling out of the air without ever having seen the thing, let alone fired a shot at it.

I think most people simply have no idea just how outrageous this aircraft is.

What are you mates bleeding on? Everything the US has, you all have too, it's already there, just not officially

originally posted by: crazyewok

An extraordinary defence of the troubled F-35 Joint Strike Fighter has been issued by the Pentagon and Lockheed Martin, the lead company building the jet.

MSN news


Ok a certian mod and friend will jump on here and rightful claim there are missions the F-35 can do that no other fighter can and its has lots of roles. I wont argue that and for the USA that's a perfectly fine defense.

Because the USA has a fleet of F-22 and F-16 that can cover the F-35.


Thing is for the UK we are not so lucky. We are replacing most our (now pitiful) air force with these F-35 and Im sure it will have these uses. But surely its a huge problem and oversight that we don't have a F-22 equivalent? If SHTF do we really want to have to rely on the USA to do the dog fighting for us ?

To me it sees the MOD has spent billions on a plane we cant use until someone else has cleared the skies for us.

Wait, what? We are replacing tornadoes with the F35??

a reply to: 3danimator2014

Tornado will be the first to go I think. But the that is a role the F-35 will do far better at.

Typhoons I think will be sticking around to 2030. By that point there airframes go beyond there intended age.

Here you go this was left by Zaphod in this thread...www.abovetopsecret.com..., and it should to be brought here...

No, the F-35 was not beaten by an F-16

Now that’s out of the way we can begin, the accusations of the F-35 being inferior may seem shocking at first but it should be noted that the specific F-35 involved was ‘AF-2′, this airframe is designed for flight testing, it’s designed to fly in certain restricted flight envelopes. It does not feature the majority of systems present in frontline aircraft. The aircraft, due to it being a test aircraft, had also not had the software installed that is required to use the sensors and mission systems that would be used in combat. Additionally, ‘AF-2′ does not feature the radar-absorbent material coating that operational aircraft have.

Articles making the claim that the F-16 is superior cite tests performed earlier in the year to assess the flying qualities of the F-35 during within visual range combat and the F-16 involved was used as a visual reference to maneuver against. The aim of the test was to demonstrate the ability of the F-35 to fly to the edge of its restricted test limits without exceeding them. The test scenario was apparently successful as it allowed the aircraft be cleared for greater agility in future tests.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk...

Just some information that should be considered when discussing the inability of the F35 against the F16.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

As I have stated I dont think the F-35 is a POS. I think it will be very capable for what its meant to do.


My issue is unlike the USA which will have numerous fighters to call on the RAF will have just two and possibly at some point only the F-35. Is that a good situation for the UK to be in?

Should we be looking now at a replacement program for the Euro fighter ?

a reply to: 727Sky

I wondered when someone would quote this ass.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: 3danimator2014

Tornado will be the first to go I think. But the that is a role the F-35 will do far better at.

Typhoons I think will be sticking around to 2030. By that point there airframes go beyond there intended age.

really? 30 years or so is their intended age? havent they been flying the f15s for over 40?

a reply to: 3danimator2014

And they're having huge problems with some of them.

originally posted by: 3danimator2014

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: 3danimator2014

Tornado will be the first to go I think. But the that is a role the F-35 will do far better at.

Typhoons I think will be sticking around to 2030. By that point there airframes go beyond there intended age.

really? 30 years or so is their intended age? havent they been flying the f15s for over 40?

The airframes are under alot of stress due to heavy overuse apparently.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: 3danimator2014

And they're having huge problems with some of them.

Fair enough, i guess 30 years is still a third of a century.

What kind of problems?

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: 3danimator2014

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: 3danimator2014

Tornado will be the first to go I think. But the that is a role the F-35 will do far better at.

Typhoons I think will be sticking around to 2030. By that point there airframes go beyond there intended age.

really? 30 years or so is their intended age? havent they been flying the f15s for over 40?

The airframes are under alot of stress due to heavy overuse apparently.

Are you being sarcastic? lol

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: tsurfer2000h

As I have stated I dont think the F-35 is a POS. I think it will be very capable for what its meant to do.


My issue is unlike the USA which will have numerous fighters to call on the RAF will have just two and possibly at some point only the F-35. Is that a good situation for the UK to be in?

Should we be looking now at a replacement program for the Euro fighter ?

By the time the Tiffys retire the F-35 will be an old platform too.

UK is looking at UCAV a the same as many other nations potentially to replace F-35 in deep strike stealth but mainly the tonkas, the fighter replacement program for Tiffys probably won't start until we know what 5.5 or 6.5-7 generation fighters will be and unless there are some MOD folk on here I couldn't hazard a guess as to when we will decide what platform will phase out the typhoon but in 2030 I would imagine the F22 will also have been replaced by a new tech, maybe Europe will try and develop their own which will be of an improved F22 standard for air superiority.

The F35 is not a typhoon replacemt, it's the harrier replacement.

Who knows what the next tech will be, but I would guess the US and Perhaps UK are now exploring future fighters in computer modelling, wind tunnel testing, future threat assessments, advanced materials, new propulsion and manned vs unmanned.

a reply to: crazyewok

I had those same thoughts awhile back, you guys need a good 5.5 gen fighter capable of countering those new Russian missiles. I wonder if the aircraft that crashed over there back in `94 might have been the plan but politics happen and now you have the Typhoon.

a reply to: 3danimator2014

Structural fatigue of the wing spar and other critical supporting areas, some of the Eagles just fall out of the sky they are so worn out. There was also a thread posted not long ago about major corrosion issues with the F/A-18E/F Super Hornets.

a reply to: 3danimator2014

There was a manufacturing defect in the aft bulkhead that could cut the life cycle in half. It stopped delivery of all aircraft and grounded several for awhile.

a reply to: 3danimator2014

They are G and Mach limited, about half have longerons too thin or patched, and are more maintenance intensive than ever.

One was flying on a ferry flight a couple years ago, straight and level, reported an emergency, and fell out of the sky.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: 3danimator2014

Typhoons I think will be sticking around to 2030. By that point there airframes go beyond there intended age.

Don't worry, the 6th Gens. jets are coming. We need them even worse than you guys do with the age of the F-15 fleet. They are expected to come into service 2025-2030 range.

originally posted by: sammamishman

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: 3danimator2014

Typhoons I think will be sticking around to 2030. By that point there airframes go beyond there intended age.

Don't worry, the 6th Gens. jets are coming. We need them even worse than you guys do with the age of the F-15 fleet. They are expected to come into service 2025-2030 range.

Thats if you guys sell us those 6th Gens

originally posted by: StratosFear
a reply to: 3danimator2014

Structural fatigue of the wing spar and other critical supporting areas, some of the Eagles just fall out of the sky they are so worn out. There was also a thread posted not long ago about major corrosion issues with the F/A-18E/F Super Hornets.

To you and Zaphod...thats insane. But now that i think about what that airframe has gone through over 30-40 years, not suprising.

Thanks for the info.