Officer and suspect draw on each other (video) Graphic

a reply to: crayzeed

Correction: the CLIP doesn't start until the officers are in the rest room. You have no idea when the camera started filming. The female officer is to the male's right. Where the door is. So how is she further in the room? She's standing at the door until she crosses from right to left and gets behind the subject.

The subject noticed the officer in the mirror within three or four seconds. At five or six seconds he asks "what do you need?" as he turns around while drying his hands. The officer answers him as soon as he speaks.

This is an actual shooting, with real guns and bullets and people. There are very rarely explosive entry wounds with blood and body parts flying all over the place when somebody is actually shot. Add to that its night time in an area that is NOT lit up like Cowboys Staidum for a night game, plus the smoke from weapons being discharged, plus the strobing light on the officer's gun and you're not going to see much.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: crayzeed

Correction: the CLIP doesn't start until the officers are in the rest room. You have no idea when the camera started filming. The female officer is to the male's right. Where the door is. So how is she further in the room? She's standing at the door until she crosses from right to left and gets behind the subject.

The subject noticed the officer in the mirror within three or four seconds. At five or six seconds he asks "what do you need?" as he turns around while drying his hands. The officer answers him as soon as he speaks.

This is an actual shooting, with real guns and bullets and people. There are very rarely explosive entry wounds with blood and body parts flying all over the place when somebody is actually shot. Add to that its night time in an area that is NOT lit up like Cowboys Staidum for a night game, plus the smoke from weapons being discharged, plus the strobing light on the officer's gun and you're not going to see much.

WHAT????? I've see it in the movies before....blood spurts everywhere and you can see through the holes....this has to be fake.

I do find it interesting that this officer had a strobe on his rail....is that commonplace now with LEO? I have trained with stobes before and it is highly disorienting. Can't say I have ever seen a video with it....made it hard to count the number of shots fired, though I believe he and his partner both fired 3.

a reply to: Doom and Gloom
It could have been maybe, but when the guy did what he did the way he did it, that was out of the control of the officers.

I see this as justified.

I did cringe at the amount of rounds fired at him, but that is something that will never change.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: olaru12

Those officers will hopefully be somewhat comforted by the fact that there was no other option. Man with a gun, waving it around in your face....I don't think there's a person here that can call this a bad shoot, police brutality or anything other than what it was...justified.

I don't think so either, but surely there will be some that will come along and say they could have just shot his legs and he would still be alive today....

Because we cannot afford to lose another BB gun-wielding beer bandit. Im wondering now that theres such a huge push for bodycams how many other previously-unbelievable cop stories will be proven true with video. If i hadnt seen this happen, id have doubted the verbal story of it. It makes so little sense, but there it is in living colour.

originally posted by: Urantia1111

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: olaru12

Those officers will hopefully be somewhat comforted by the fact that there was no other option. Man with a gun, waving it around in your face....I don't think there's a person here that can call this a bad shoot, police brutality or anything other than what it was...justified.

I don't think so either, but surely there will be some that will come along and say they could have just shot his legs and he would still be alive today....

Because we cannot afford to lose another BB gun-wielding beer bandit. Im wondering now that theres such a huge push for bodycams how many other previously-unbelievable cop stories will be proven true with video. If i hadnt seen this happen, id have doubted the verbal story of it. It makes so little sense, but there it is in living colour.

“The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.”


― Charles Bukowski

Sums it up pretty well....that guy looked pretty confident he was going to get away with pulling a pellet gun on the cops.

The sad thing is, had the officers searched and cuffed the guy prior to taking him out of the restroom, he'd still be alive and no shots would've needed to be fired. It's always a lot easier to second guess after the fact than deal with a situation in real time, but my God, isn't it SOP to secure a suspect prior to walking him (or her) through an area with a lot of people?

There was a real possibility for that to have ended a lot more tragically than it did, and the way it ended was tragic enough.

originally posted by: Bilk22
a reply to: PraetorianAZ

Is that how they would apprehend a suspect? Walk him thru the entire restaurant and then outside where he's not cuffed and can flee or do exactly what he did? Something doesn't seem right about any of that.

Well, the suspect was not being apprehended. He was simply going to be questioned about his possible involvement in a theft situation. He was not being detained, he was not being charged. He was simply being questioned. If they were apprehending him they never would have asked for his ID or walked him out of the bar. They would have thrown cuffs on him and dragged him out.

They were simply trying to ascertain that he was the man they were looking for when he pulled the pellet gun. Who knows this man could of walked if he was smooth enough. Instead, he tried to live by the sword.

a reply to: Shamrock6
The clip you see doesn't start till the officer is standing behind the perp. It must have taken the said officer a couple of seconds to get in that position as he's still and set. And no I disagree with your assertions, he MUST have stood a good 7 or 8 seconds behind him before he speaks. That sir is a very long time.
If I were their commanding officer I would have chewed their asses off. Putting themselves in un-necessary danger.
They should have made their presence know at the first opportunity (hence surprise on their side) and should have controlled the perp from the get go, with a body search included. All the while they had him secluded in a small area with no chance of anyone else being hurt.
Now look at what if. What if he had pulled his gun inside the restaurant.
The officers failed miserably in their duty which lead to the escalation of what could have been a straightforward arrest.

originally posted by: Doom and Gloom
a reply to: subfab


Why did they not pat him down to ensure he was not armed? Why do people not see that this needless murder could have been prevented?

Because he was not under arrest or being detained. He was just being questioned.

originally posted by: yeahright
The sad thing is, had the officers searched and cuffed the guy prior to taking him out of the restroom, he'd still be alive and no shots would've needed to be fired. It's always a lot easier to second guess after the fact than deal with a situation in real time, but my God, isn't it SOP to secure a suspect prior to walking him (or her) through an area with a lot of people?

There was a real possibility for that to have ended a lot more tragically than it did, and the way it ended was tragic enough.

There wasn't anything to suggest him being hostile at all when confronted. Police don't usually cuff you and pat you down unless you are obviously in the act of committing a crime or seem hostile in some way. This guy actually seemed pretty harmless from what I saw....until he pulled a pellet gun.

a reply to: yeahright

Well they want to keep you out of cuffs so you will talk and they can get the confession.

Also think they wanted to get him out of the establishment before they did that.

originally posted by: yeahright
The sad thing is, had the officers searched and cuffed the guy prior to taking him out of the restroom, he'd still be alive and no shots would've needed to be fired. It's always a lot easier to second guess after the fact than deal with a situation in real time, but my God, isn't it SOP to secure a suspect prior to walking him (or her) through an area with a lot of people?

There was a real possibility for that to have ended a lot more tragically than it did, and the way it ended was tragic enough.

The right thing to do was get him away from the public so they could question him about the robbery. At that point, the officers couldn't have known for sure if he was the right guy or not. Get him in private, in a more controllable area, and question him, then arrest him if necessary. You don't go cuffing and searching random people in a crowded restaurant... that's how situations get escalated. 9 times out of 10, even if a guy knows he is guilty, he won't go full retard until the cuffs come out and he realizes he's going to jail.

originally posted by: crayzeed
a reply to: Shamrock6
The clip you see doesn't start till the officer is standing behind the perp. It must have taken the said officer a couple of seconds to get in that position as he's still and set. And no I disagree with your assertions, he MUST have stood a good 7 or 8 seconds behind him before he speaks. That sir is a very long time.
If I were their commanding officer I would have chewed their asses off. Putting themselves in un-necessary danger.
They should have made their presence know at the first opportunity (hence surprise on their side) and should have controlled the perp from the get go, with a body search included. All the while they had him secluded in a small area with no chance of anyone else being hurt.
Now look at what if. What if he had pulled his gun inside the restaurant.
The officers failed miserably in their duty which lead to the escalation of what could have been a straightforward arrest.

Just stop. The officers did everything right and you're talking out of your anus.

a reply to: crayzeed

you dont get cuffed until you are being detained. If they would had detained the wrong man they could had been sued and charged with kidnapping right?

originally posted by: yuppa
a reply to: crayzeed

you dont get cuffed until you are being detained. If they would had detained the wrong man they could had been sued and charged with kidnapping right?

False arrest/Illegal Detention, not kidnapping, but yes.

originally posted by: crayzeed
Something doesn't gel with the video. Now the officers are filming the incident. the filming doesn't start till both officers are in the room with the female officer to the right of the male officer so she's further into the room. Time took to get into position in the room and time took from the start of filming was over 10 seconds before the officers made their presence known. Somehow this doesn't seem the right scenario, even at the start of filming the long pause before they confront him. Also he wore shorts so the gun in his pocket must have stuck out like a sore thumb. In my opinion the officers were quite lax in not searching him while they had him to themselves in a tight space.
Also the shooting part. There were quite a few shots fired at him by both officers yet no visible wounds or blood.
If it's been released by the law office then you would think that it's genuine, yet it seems so pat like it's been directed by a Holywood director.

Actually, it seems like you've been watching too many Hollywood movies/playing too many video games yourself.

In a real shooting, blood doesn't splatter everywhere and spray all over the place like in call of duty. Generally you only see the blood start to leak out after the person is dead on the ground. Also, bullet wounds are small and it is ridiculous to think they'd be visible on a grainy video like that, at night no less.

originally posted by: yeahright
The sad thing is, had the officers searched and cuffed the guy prior to taking him out of the restroom, he'd still be alive and no shots would've needed to be fired. It's always a lot easier to second guess after the fact than deal with a situation in real time, but my God, isn't it SOP to secure a suspect prior to walking him (or her) through an area with a lot of people?

There was a real possibility for that to have ended a lot more tragically than it did, and the way it ended was tragic enough.

Not necessarily. They hadnt even IDed the guy yet. They dont slap the cuffs on everyone they meet prior to even checking to see who they are. Seemed like all they intended to do initially was have a brief chat with him. There was no arrest or reading of rights, just the very start of a questioning. He didnt appear to have stolen beer on him when they walked in.

a reply to: crayzeed

Okay well I went with how many seconds everything happened into the clip. If you want to assign some fantasy time frame to support your theory this can't possibly be a real shooting, go for it. You are categorically wrong in your assertions about the video, on everything from timing to who was where.

It is what it is.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: yeahright
The sad thing is, had the officers searched and cuffed the guy prior to taking him out of the restroom, he'd still be alive and no shots would've needed to be fired. It's always a lot easier to second guess after the fact than deal with a situation in real time, but my God, isn't it SOP to secure a suspect prior to walking him (or her) through an area with a lot of people?

There was a real possibility for that to have ended a lot more tragically than it did, and the way it ended was tragic enough.

There wasn't anything to suggest him being hostile at all when confronted. Police don't usually cuff you and pat you down unless you are obviously in the act of committing a crime or seem hostile in some way. This guy actually seemed pretty harmless from what I saw....until he pulled a pellet gun.

And even then, he was only dangerous to himself. Maybe he grabbed the wrong gun when he left the house that day. Id love to hear more details on this guy's situation when they become available. Perplexing.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

No more or less common than any other light guys will carry, no. Really just personal preference.

The one I carry has three settings:

1) That's really bright and I am uncomfortable

2) my god, why is the sun in my retina?

3) the sun is now strobing and not only am I blind but I may need to vomit

Works pretty well.