How we become what we hate

a reply to: gosseyn

And please explain to us what "greed" is, from a holistic stand point (meaning not excluding any parameter from the equation), because you use that word like an incantation, like superstitious people use the word "devil" or "satan".

I'm not really sure what you're asking but my explanation of greed would be that it's an instinct that humans are hard-coded with because we evolved to ensure our own survival and look out for ourselves before anyone else. We also have a high level thought process which causes us to desire nice things and as long as nice things are scarce or expensive people wont be sharing. Last time I checked there were 22 empty homes for every homeless person in the U.S. (more than 18 million empty homes).

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Survival doesn't equal greed. Survival is an instinct while greed is something that is learned. The lion in the savannah is not being greedy when he kills and eats his prey. If like you say greed was hard-coded, we would make stocks of breathing air - something that is very crucial to our survival -, but we don't. Survival is hard coded, but greed isn't. Survival ≠ greed.

For a pedophile, 'nice things' equals to children, but we don't let them have what they want. For a murderous psychopath who is obsessed by death, "nice things" equals to victims, but we don't let them have it. And fortunately we don't live in the kind of culture that permits this stuff. But we live in a destructive culture that breeds insane levels of inequality. At some point we have to make a choice of culture, and luckily it is just a question of choice, but when you blur the maps like you do when you say things like "greed is hard-coded", the fact that culture is something that we can control and improve becomes hidden to you and those who listen to you.

You also spoke of governments in your OP. It is not my intention to defend governments but today governments are hijacked by privately owned corporations like banks, and big businesses like oil companies, car industries, biotech and pharmaceutical corps, weapons manufacturers, food producers and so on. It is those privately owned entities who need governments to be big and enforce the economic ideology which gives them their power. It is those privately owned companies that want the status quo because the current economic ideology stems from them. Governments theoretically are the highest level of cooperation of a given community, but when very influential private interests act like parasites, things go wrong more than they should. Please explain how you would ever prevent influential private interests from constantly seeking more power.

a reply to: gosseyn

Survival is an instinct while greed is something that is learned. The lion in the savannah is not being greedy when he kills and eats his prey.

That may be true to a certain extent but it's also true that a group of animals will fight over a food source if food is scarce. There are many different species which exhibit that behavior. Even birds do it when I throw them a slice of bread. There is always that one bird who has to take the whole thing for him self and attack any bird who tries to approach. There is also experiments which show that apes will get angry if they feel they are not getting as much food as another ape, they wont be happy until they have as much or more food than the next guy.

Also it doesn't really matter whether it's an instinct or just a higher thought process which is learned because when I look around in the world all I see is people trying to amass as much wealth as they possibly can and I see no way that strong desire to have more than the next person will cease to dominate the way society functions until there is unlimited resources for everyone, thus nullifying any reason to hoard. Expecting a society which runs on finite resources to morph into utopia where everything is shared and money isn't used is entirely unrealistic on every level and I doubt it could even work from an economic perspective.

For a pedophile, 'nice things' equals to children, but we don't let them have what they want. For a murderous psychopath who is obsessed by death, "nice things" equals to victims, but we don't let them have it. And fortunately we don't live in the kind of culture that permits this stuff

Clearly I was referring to commodities and other resources that the common man wants and needs to enjoy a high quality of life.

At some point we have to make a choice of culture, and luckily it is just a question of choice, but when you blur the maps like you do when you say things like "greed is hard-coded", the fact that culture is something that we can control and improve becomes hidden to you and those who listen to you.

I think there are some things we can control about society and other things we cannot control, at least not without some sort of dictatorship which enforces wealth redistribution, but there are many reasons that wouldn't work and it doesn't even solve the root of the problem, and I don't agree with forcing people to do things against their will. The existence of money and personal property is not the problem, the problem is clearly a business system which pays the middle class low wages whilst most of the wealth gets funneled to a minority of shareholders. The answer is fixing the flaws in the business system and the money system, which is why I promote decentralized cryptocurrencies which cannot be manipulated by anyone. It is naive to jump to conclusions and automatically assume money must be the problem so we should totally scrap the money system. Doing that would do much more harm than good.

You also spoke of governments in your OP. It is not my intention to defend governments but today governments are hijacked by privately owned corporations like banks, and big businesses like oil companies, car industries, biotech and pharmaceutical corps, weapons manufacturers, food producers and so on.

I don't disagree, like I said I believe in a small government which doesn't interfere with every aspect of society and give unfair advantages to large corporations. But I don't really see how that is relevant to any of the stuff you just said.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Nicely stated.

In a sense this comes from a number of things.

For one..when one is young one tends to be more idealistic. Utopia is possible. But then reality sets in, as opposed to fantasy, and one realizes that because people are people it can never be (at least at this stage of societal development). Too many takers, not enough givers in a sense. Look at govt benefits: Look at how many people will take everything and all they possible can and then some. This applies to the rich and the poor as well.
Does everyone have a great sense of work ethics? Nope...for one thing, without that one will not have utopia. See too many takers above.
Does everyone look out for the other person as much as themselves? Nope...see takers above.

I think that once the reality of existence sets in, one becomes wiser in the ways of the world...in the ways of people.
That is when a more Libertarian/conservative viewpoint sets in. One realizes that conservatism (not the conservatism as commonly portrayed by liberal; which is NOT conservatism in this regard) is a realistic and workable solution for most people. Liberalism is not workable, not sustainable and winds up being nothing more than bureaucratic waste and corruption as applied in govt.

When i was young, I was a liberal. Pie in the sky, principal, fantasy wielding liberal. Now...I am decades older and I am a libertarian. I just wish the political candicates presented for libertarians werent nut cases, cause we really need a 3rd party.

About every ten years I look back at myself a decade ago. My thoughts tend to run along the lines of: How naive I was then! Every. Single. Decade.

I am not sure that I am wiser, that I am smarter in any form or any better informed relatively speaking. I would like to think so, but we are dealing with nothing more than perception. My perception is that I am learning, evolving, becoming a bit (just a teeeny bit) wiser as I age.

I hate healthy people, gratitude, compassion and love!!!

I hope you can see what I am doing here.

In parallel with another thread, about hypocrisy, this made me think, and helped me understand something.

It was about the Boomer generation, and hypocrisy. I stated that in my experience, with my parents generation, from southern California, who were in Watts during the riots, at Woodstock, experimenting with drugs, free love and bisexuality, meditating to sitars, vegetarianism, communes, nonviolence and anti-war,

Who turned into Bible thumping anti-gay, pro-war, turkey frying, conservative republicans....

Who once chanted "hell no, we won't go!" but didn't hesitate to send their grandchildren to die in other countries,

Who hated "The Establishment", but remained within the University system for life, dependent upon state aid, as students, post graduates, then well paid professors....

It makes sense if you look at it from the point of view of becoming that which you hate with a passion.......

a reply to: justchilling

I have different modes. Since hold'em was brought up previously and it's rather fitting, I'll mention my own game.

When at that table, I have to be open to absorb everyone else, while not allowing myself to show. I also have to project many images, though they are consciously thrown, and never who I am.

That's when it's terribly difficult to get at who I am, but it's also really freaking draining mode of operation. I never lost at the table after having entered this mode, but concluded it wasn't worth it. What's the point of accumulating monies if you don't have the energies to spend it?

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: Hombre

Your thoughts are Mirrored in the world.

That reminds me of another theory I used to believe in, the idea that we could shape reality with thoughts alone, like something out of the secret. Now I firmly believe that an objective reality does exist and that conscious observers play no special role in quantum mechanics. Of course our thoughts and our frame of mind will dictate our actions, and the effects of our actions will ripple out into the world and change reality, but there's nothing paranormal about the way that happens.

Objective reality appears to exist and thoughts are part of that objective reality - thoughts are of the appearance. Whatever appears is not done by anyone - the appearance is doing itself.
There is nothing paranormal about life happening (appearing) but it is literally just happening. The weird thing about it is that there is absolutely no one doing life - life is just happening (including thoughts and actions).

a reply to: Itisnowagain

So does all of this boil down to your belief that there is no free will?

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
a reply to: Itisnowagain

So does all of this boil down to your belief that there is no free will?

There is no individual freewill because what is happening (life) is just happening. The illusion is that there is an individual self that can choose to be a certain way.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I agree. This happened to me as well. When I first came here, I was WAY more conspiracy minded than I am now. I didn't believe EVERYTHING I read, but I wasn't as well read as I am now either. Then I started looking more thoroughly into the conspiracies I was advocating and applying the same standards of questioning that conspiracy theorists demand of mainstream accounts and found that many conspiracy theories fall even shorter than the mainstream accounts. So I just shifted back to believing the mainstream ideas because they make more logical sense.

I traveled through the rabbit hole and found that the other side looks EXACTLY the same if not worse than the side I came from.

a reply to: pl3bscheese

What's the point of accumulating monies if you don't have the energies to spend it?

I can sit with u and turn the table on others and pick the mode projected back at u

but not if the soul purpose is what I have quoted

it feels like we are trying to accomplish identical achievements
but for different legacy

is something I am yet to see what lays in ur soul
don't freak out .. just picking up what u putting down

i have too much too say right now lol so i will say this. after 9 11 and me getting a computer everything changed
in my life,my beliefs and the actual physical world. the more i thought i learned about the truth such as 9 11 and planes and new world order and zionists taking over the world and jews plan to own the planet and make us all slaves and then reptilians and then moon landings faked then the plan to kill us all i thought i discovered something all the other ignorant sleeping people in the world did not know. the more i thought about it it became clear that no matter what i researched and believed to be true seemed to became fact.
it seems possible (and there are top scientists who believe this to be true)that the past can be changed based on your beliefs as long as you have not personally witnessed it.please consider what i am saying and ask yourself if the same thing has happened to you. once i believed more and more in something it materialized in real life stronger and stronger as the more i searched for proof the more i found and the mor e it seemed to become reality.
after much pondering and research such as quantum science and edgar cayce etc i am now 100% sure we create our own reality through thoughts and beliefs. and we all can change our future.i know this sounds nuts but maqny scientists concur with this .look up the quantum wave theory . einstein and so many others have stated reality is an illusion but a strong one. i believe we are all one. and what you believe in your heart and mind without doubt becomes reality. the new testament even confirms this. its all really deep. good luck and god bless
ps-i know how insane this sounds

Hey Chaotic Order:
Great post. Expressing your evolving point of view is great for yourself, as well as others. My screen name is about the evolution of our being, coincidentally. So, your post about this was a natural draw for me. Where we are at 25 is much different than where we are at 50 and so on. If you've read many of my posts, then you would know I have some quirky views, saying the least, about time, space and our place in it and how that all figures into consciousness, and vice versa.
Does life reflect art, or does art reflect life, and then we can transpolate that same thing onto consciousness and life. For sure, there are some incredibly interesting observations by physics going on about just this question right now, but on every other day, at least, I have a different opinion about that than the science……and so it goes. You have to wonder, after a while, if it just doesn't amount to, singly, what is believed……and this becomes what is true. And yet, I have never been a fan of post modernistic philosphical concepts that we all have our own truth, and that truth is relative, to that extent. Yet, increasingly, I seem to experience it that way.

But I am particularly taken with your exploring the concept of becoming, increasingly, as time goes on, what you despised. I have watched this happen to many, and experienced it myself. It is why I often wonder if we aren't all experiencing our own version of hell, hereabouts……

At the least, if we define it simply as a learning experience, then it would make some sense that we become what we despise, so we could have compassion for it, perhaps. Interesting concept.
tetra

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder


That may be true to a certain extent but it's also true that a group of animals will fight over a food source if food is scarce. There are many different species which exhibit that behavior. Even birds do it when I throw them a slice of bread. There is always that one bird who has to take the whole thing for him self and attack any bird who tries to approach. There is also experiments which show that apes will get angry if they feel they are not getting as much food as another ape, they wont be happy until they have as much or more food than the next guy.

You are basically repeating what I said, that what you call greed is not instinctive, is not 'hard-coded' as you say, but is something that can be expressed depending on the situation, depending on the circumstances of the environment. Greed is something that is learned through experience, and unfortunately it is something that is also taught.

Also it doesn't really matter whether it's an instinct or just a higher thought process which is learned because when I look around in the world all I see is people trying to amass as much wealth as they possibly can and I see no way that strong desire to have more than the next person will cease to dominate the way society functions until there is unlimited resources for everyone, thus nullifying any reason to hoard. Expecting a society which runs on finite resources to morph into utopia where everything is shared and money isn't used is entirely unrealistic on every level and I doubt it could even work from an economic perspective.

The people you look at are the products of their environment. Change the environment and you will obtain a different product. And you can continue using condescending words like "utopia" all you want, this will not change the facts. And I don't believe in any 'utopia', I believe in realistic scientific possibilities.

Clearly I was referring to commodities and other resources that the common man wants and needs to enjoy a high quality of life.

The thought processes that lead someone to want this or that don't differ. Just because you want something - anything - doesn't mean that you should have it. What if I want the whole of Africa as my backyard and I have enough money to buy it ?

I think there are some things we can control about society and other things we cannot control, at least not without some sort of dictatorship which enforces wealth redistribution, but there are many reasons that wouldn't work and it doesn't even solve the root of the problem, and I don't agree with forcing people to do things against their will. The existence of money and personal property is not the problem, the problem is clearly a business system which pays the middle class low wages whilst most of the wealth gets funneled to a minority of shareholders. The answer is fixing the flaws in the business system and the money system, which is why I promote decentralized cryptocurrencies which cannot be manipulated by anyone. It is naive to jump to conclusions and automatically assume money must be the problem so we should totally scrap the money system. Doing that would do much more harm than good.

Again you use condescending words like 'naive'. At this point I wonder if in reality it is not yourself that you're trying to convince. Anyway : as I said I believe in realistic scientific possibilities, while you are just trying to rehash the current system not taking into account new possibilities.

I don't disagree, like I said I believe in a small government which doesn't interfere with every aspect of society and give unfair advantages to large corporations. But I don't really see how that is relevant to any of the stuff you just said.

You have not taken into account anything that I said and you have not responded to the question : how are you going to prevent powerful private interests from seeking and gaining even more power ? How do you explain that at the same moment where governments are big, corporations are also big and powerful ? Don't you see that it is big corporations that need a big government to enforce the laws that protect their wealth ? Those big corps want and need big governments to make sure that the economic ideological principles that made them powerful are maintained and reinforced.



But everything you said is nullified by just one thing : scientific and technological progress, something that you don't take into account. We have attained a level of technological advancement to the point where we could automate right now half of all the jobs around the world. You don't take into account technological unemployment : the jobs are not coming back, they are gone for good : unemployment will just rise more and more.

And we've already had this conversation, so I guess I know where this is going.

originally posted by: gosseyn
And we've already had this conversation, so I guess I know where this is going.

So you thought it was necessary to have the same debate again even though it's not really the topic of this thread?

You are basically repeating what I said, that what you call greed is not instinctive, is not 'hard-coded' as you say, but is something that can be expressed depending on the situation, depending on the circumstances of the environment.

Yes that is certainly true, and in our current environment there are many resources which are scarce and finite in quantity. I have already attempted to explain to you why money will always be necessary as long as we live in a world which has resources that people aren't willing to give away for free. Unfortunately we happen to live in a world where the laws of physics and thermodynamics prevent us from having access to infinite resources. That is why I think it's crucial for the human race to become an interstellar species before our population grows too large for the Earth to handle.

Don't you see that it is big corporations that need a big government to enforce the laws that protect their wealth ? Those big corps want and need big governments to make sure that the economic ideological principles that made them powerful are maintained and reinforced.

That is one of the main reasons why I believe in a small and highly decentralized government, so that large corporations wont get unfair advantages by manipulating the government, and they will have the ability to fail instead of always getting bailed out by the government. There are plenty of places in the world you can go where things are more communistic and less capitalistic but you'll usually find the citizens live a much lower quality of life compared to those in westernized business systems.

There is a reason why the United States quickly rose to become one of the most powerful nations on Earth: the founding fathers tried to decentralize the government among the states as much as possible and they embraced a capitalistic free market system because they believed in ideas of personal liberty and freedom, not a hive mind mentality, because they understood that everyone is different and some people will always disagree with each other, and they just broke away from a repressive regime which robbed them of liberty. Now all of that is now being undone and the U.S. is slowly being transformed into the totalitarian dictatorship it was designed to defeat.

You have not taken into account anything that I said and you have not responded to the question : how are you going to prevent powerful private interests from seeking and gaining even more power ?

The flaws in the business system and money system are a prime reason private interests have the ability to accumulate excess levels of wealth and power. Fixing those flaws limits their ability to gain an unfair advantage over anyone else participating in the free market. Changing from a debt based system which has unending inflation to a system where new currency is hard to create will vastly limit the criminal profits of the banking system. Also I don't think there's anything wrong with the existence of a large successful corporation as long as it treats its employees fairly and acts in an ethical manner. Successful businesses help the economy stay healthy and increase the living standards for everyone.

I've heard of many children who grow up in a religious household and then become firm atheists and feel like a weight has been lifted and they can see clearly for the first time. Then you have people who've been atheists all their lives and they suddenly have a major epiphany and start preaching about their transformation and how they were able to see the light.

I think there is also another reason for this though.

When you grow up in a very religious household, you know constantly going to Church/Bible study you can't help but learn ALOT about the scriptures. Many atheists I know are far more knowledgeable on what the Bible says than many of the Christians I know. After all, you don't come to the conclusion that religion is not for you by being ignorant of it. When you look at it logically, and see the double standards and how God says one thing and then does another, how he really has no problem breaking those 10 laws that he gave to us humans, how really so much of the scriptures are open to interpretation (and some preachers BS interpretation is no better than my BS interpretation just because he got brainwashed for several years at the Seminary.) then you can't help but come to the conclusion that the wizardgod just does'nt exist.

And it seems to me that many people who are raised with no God/Religion aren't too in touch with their spiritual side, they neglect that aspect of themselves because they've always been told there is no God. Then when something happens that can only be described as one of lifes rare spiritual epiphanies then they realize that something that they've always been told was hogwash is all of a suddden real to them.

I dunno if I'm making sense but it sounds great in my head for me to understand lol.

originally posted by: bitsforbytes
I hate healthy people, gratitude, compassion and love!!!

I hope you can see what I am doing here.

we see what you are trying to do but it isnt working that way.
you really do NOT want to HATE, but to forgive and forget.

As hate is making only illusions, so only Love will set you Free.

edit:
In the Reality of God, there is no Forgiveness, because there is no need of it.
In this timebased belief, forgiveness is needed so that we can learn that, in Reality, it has not happened at all.

a reply to: Hombre

I agree, forgiveness is very important, as it exercises you to let go and accept someones mistakes. When forgiving is done sincerely it dissolves all the negative effects felt at the time of the mistake and forgetting comes if forgiveness is true.

Compassion for the others' position needs to be felt in both directions as mistake receiver and a mistake giver. To remember that you are always someones giver and somebody else' receiver. Sometimes you interchange those roles several times with the same person. It is called marriage.

Take care!