John Oliver Segment on Transgender Rights

a reply to: mc_squared

Yes, open dialog is vital to understanding, as long as you can come to it with an open enough mind to not start throwing slurs at the first signs of disagreement, or misunderstanding.

i say this about Both sides

People wanna tranny out let them shake it like they want. I like to wear me a mean dress on occasion and strut my stuff. You got a problem with that? Your deal.

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
People wanna tranny out let them shake it like they want. I like to wear me a mean dress on occasion and strut my stuff. You got a problem with that? Your deal.

Excuse me? I'll be as polite and delicate as possible and assume you are just and imbecile, but "tranny" is a complete and total slur. You've now completely established your ignorance and total lack of civility and have no business being in this thread. Go home, please and have a nice day somewhere else.

Thank you.

I like John Oliver and had just completed watching his show when I saw this thread. I have a hard time with the bathroom issue for a couple of reasons. One, it makes me extremely uncomfortable to be in a bathroom with someone of the opposite sex even if they identify with my sex. Second, I feel uncomfortable with children being in the bathroom with someone of the opposite sex regardless of their perception of their gender.

I am not saying I know what to do with this issue or how to handle it, but frankly, people can be rightfully uncomfortable with this situation and their comfort isn't being considered by the transgender community.

a reply to: EKron

Woa woa woa, is this where a non-tranny can't call a tranny a tranny, but they call each other a tranny over and over?

Don't take in a victim mentality for no good reason.

I'm not taking the hit for your over-sensitivity.

Trannies refer to themselves as trannies in my area, if that's different in your area then my bad.

originally posted by: GENERAL EYES
First off, let me start by saying I am in full support of the Transgender Community and I have no bias against any individual, class, creed or color when it comes to Civil Rights issues. But I do have a serious concern about persons who gender-identify as the opposite sex who haven't gone through transition using bathrooms of their sexual identification..

Thank you for your support and understanding and for sharing your questions and concerns in a mature and respectful way. There is a lot of diversity and variance among those that fall under the T in LGBT and even the terminology and definitions don't always seem particularly clear and aren't universally agreed upon. This whole scene is pretty removed from my life and I may not even have all the PC buzzwords down right? I've not been paying attention in class.

These aren't discussions I'm normally involved with but I do have my own opinions and understanding of things, whether they tow the party line or not? These are hot button topics and I myself hope that I don't say something that offends someone but I will try to answer your question and address your concern with the caveat being that I don't speak for everyone. For brevity, I'll try to come up with some probably inaccurate generalized categorizations and will refer to men that identify as women for the sake of discussion although it does go both ways.

There are men that identify as women and live as men and men that identify as men that may dress as women full or part time and may or may not take hormones and may not have intention of having sexual reassignment surgery (SRS). This may include cross dressers, transvestites, drag queens or the proverbial man in a dress? I'm not really familiar with this group and probably sound like an ass. There are also those that are on hormone therapy, living full time as women on a surgical track to fully and permanently become female. (these I understand) There are probably multiple shades of grey and everything in between as well and I criticize even myself for coming up with such gross stereotypes? I struggle to define this.

You use the term "gone through transition" which in and of itself has different meanings but could just mean gone from living as a man to living as a woman? One of the requirements prior to being accepted for sexual reassignment surgery is to live fully in your chosen gender for at least a minimum of one year and I can guarantee you the last thing someone on a transsexual pre-operative surgical track would do is put themselves in a situation that required nudity or risk exposing their privates. I would venture to say even males that have switched socially to living as women full time would be loath to having the status of their genitals discovered as touched on in the video. It's PC not to ask.

However, my opinion on a penis in the ladies gym showers is that it is a complete disrespect for the comfort levels of female bodied women that I find almost inconceivable from someone claiming woman identity. It is absolutely alpha male privileged behavior no ifs ands or buts. Transgender deconstructionist bloggers are clamoring for this as their civil right which I think is absolutely nuts. (no pun intended) For those that are directly working toward or have completed sexual reassignment surgery, that I still use the unpopular term transsexual for, feel the struggle for their own unique rights is losing potential allies from the demands of the transgender jihad. (Boy, I'm really gonna get it for that) I don't mean to offend anyone. I'm dumb as the next person but this does show that all of us no matter what we are, are all different and unique and that labels suck.

Whatever the case, I don't have a solid answer for you. For what's worth, the transgender or transsexual person is usually the victim, not the aggressor. These issues are new and evolving and not all figured out yet. I guess I could say if their are women in the bathroom that aren't acting like ladies, I'd probably be pretty damned uncomfortable and if I saw penises in the showers at the fitness center, I'd probably lose my s**t.

I'd happy to continue this line discussion. Maybe I can figure it out too?

Thank You!!!

a reply to: pl3bscheese

Listen friend, I shouldn't dignify your further taunting with a reply but I find it quite satisfying you've now left little doubt in anyone's mind exactly the type of person you are. Your display of brilliance speaks volumes.

Enjoy your evening. I'm going to have a beer. I'd offer you one but I don't like you.

a reply to: EKron

Yep, that's what I thought. You're choosing a victim mentality when I was using a word correctly, and without any negative connotations. Half of your community is in agreement with me. The other half is stuck on the word and disregarding the intent. That's called PC nonsense, and the majority of this site hates it, I trust they'll see through it here as well.

a reply to: EKron

I used to go to a lot of dive bars and punk rock clubs back in the mid-90's.....we were mostly a younger generation, but there were some old schoolers and old timers who enjoyed the music as well. The public bathrooms during big show nights were full of folks from every conceivable gender imaginable...and we all got along famously. If any perverts snuck in and tried harassing anyone they got the tar beat out of them pretty fast by everyone with respect for everyone else. I've seen Marines beat the snot out of folks harassing the LGBT's as well as the regular gender identifications. Those were some beautiful communities taking care of one another.

I suppose I just worry about regular folks bathrooms and regular public spaces because I've had some very frightening experiences on my own in the "real world" and I don't want any innocent person minding their own business to ever have to deal with humiliation or assault EVER...especially not little kids who sometimes go to the restroom alone while their parents are shopping.

I've had enough of my friends and associates get hurt just for being themselves in the public venues over the years, from school to the workplace and in non-LGBT friendly spaces. I really hope we are moving forward as a society to where one day these types of things aren't an issue, and seeing how the millennials and younger generations are being so totally cool gives me hope, but there are still hyper-aggressive and intolerant people out there in all age demographics and I'm still a little nervous.

a reply to: pl3bscheese

Hate to call you out on this one Pl3bs, you and I have been friends a while, but yeah - "Tranny" is a cruel slur and rude and dehumanizing. The only time the word is acceptable is when you're talking about the transmission on a car.

Sorry bro, but there it is.

I am glad to find people are becoming more aware, or at least trying to understand transgender issues and things that we face though we have a long ways to go. I am a transgender woman myself in fact I made one of the threads EKron posted (Thank you by the way) I am also making myself available for questions if they come from the right place not one of condemnation. For me being transgender is something I believe God made me to be, not a mistake, I still have a relationship with the Lord, I just don't believe all of the Bible was written by God, especially the anti-gay sentiment. I will leave you with a phrase I read from another transgender woman, in which it took me years to accept:

"I was never born in the wrong body, but the wrong society." -Unknown

Ask away, you will find I am really no different than you.

Please ATSers, be respectful of the people and content of this thread. Especially when we have members willing to share their personal experiences and give you insight into their life. It is an opportunity you should not easily dismiss or pass up. It is a chance to deny ignorance.

a reply to: GENERAL EYES

Seriously?

The power people give over words.

I'm not going to understand this one. I've used that word in public to transexuals without any sign of them being upset.

Okay let me play devils advocate here. Let's assume that this word has a bad rap with many people, and many have felt offended over it.

Do you think the origins of such a fouling up of a word happened with vibrations coming out of their mouths, or with feelings of harm going along with them?

I don't think we're going to rid the world of bullies, and book burning... yea it's not a wise strategy to really wish a word out of existence.

Would it not be a better strategy to transform a word from it's perceived ill roots to something positive? Surely that's a superior strategy.

If you try to wish it out of non-existence, you lose, and fall victim when it's used. What about when it's used neutrally by an (apparently) ignorant imbecile like me? Damned the context, deny the intent!

Rappers have attempted to transform the N word towards something that they can be proud of. Maybe transexuals can take a cue from that. Meh, I'll bow out of this one.

I'm sorry for the (apparently) huge offense of my previous posts, it wasn't intended.

originally posted by: Metallicus
I like John Oliver and had just completed watching his show when I saw this thread. I have a hard time with the bathroom issue for a couple of reasons. One, it makes me extremely uncomfortable to be in a bathroom with someone of the opposite sex even if they identify with my sex. Second, I feel uncomfortable with children being in the bathroom with someone of the opposite sex regardless of their perception of their gender.

I am not saying I know what to do with this issue or how to handle it, but frankly, people can be rightfully uncomfortable with this situation and their comfort isn't being considered by the transgender community.

I've just replied to General Eyes on this subject and seemed to use a lot of words without really saying anything. I too am trying to get a handle on how to address it and if you don't mind, will try to continue working through it with you by examining some scenarios and see if we can find an answer? I appreciate your taking the time to post and for your comments. You were talking about kids and bathrooms and I assumed mom and I apologize if I'm mistaken. This thought exercise still might work though?

Let's first eliminate a man dressing up as a woman for a disguise whether to rob a bank or gain access to the ladies room for nefarious intent. This is not transgender or transsexual. This is fraud.

Next, let's eliminate people like JadeStar and myself as otherwise, we're just regular women. Except for my close family, I'm not out to anyone and could be your neighbor down the street or your mom.

Scenario 1
Caitlyn Jenner walks into the restroom and quietly goes into a stall and shuts the door to tinkle while you've got your 4 year old daughter sitting on the sink counter trying to get the stuck bubble gum out of her hair. Caitlyn finishes, washes her hands two sinks down from you and gives you a smile as she turns to walk out the door. Fame and celebrity aside, all you know is she is transgender. The status of her genitals is unknown.

Scenario 2
An "athletic" looking woman in a sleeveless rainbow t-shirt, tattoos down her arm, short blue hair, ring in her nose, boots and very much butch walks in with a friend and your gaydar goes into overdrive. They're laughing, maybe been drinking and a little loud and rowdy. They both go into separate stalls to do their duty, come out and wash their hands at the same time two sinks down while you're still working on that damn gum. They see what you're doing, kind of look at you and say "oh man!" then one giggles and the other one playfully chases her as they run out the door.

Scenario 3
You're thinking now you're going to have to wait until you get home to get that gum out and vow to never give bubble gum to a four year old again but haven't quite given up and are still working on it. Another person walks in, she's somewhat pretty and you make brief eye contact and nod as she too goes into a stall to answer nature's call. After washing her hands, she touches up her lipstick and wishes you good luck on the hair as she turns for the door and leaves. On the news that evening, you recognize the photo of woman from the bathroom that had been hospitalized after being found beaten by several men that were overheard by witnesses saying fag, homo, queer but captured and charged with a transgender hate crime.

Scenario 4
You've given up on the gum but you and your daughter have now both gone into one stall so she can go potty. Somebody comes in and you can hear them washing their hands in the sink. When you come out, you think this person could be wearing a wig but is nicely dressed and as you approach the sink you notice her hands seem somewhat big. Your spidey sense goes off and you are not quite certain the person next to you is really a woman but she's friendly, smiles and says hi to your daughter in a falsetto voice and then you leave fairly sure or confused anyway that this person you just encountered might have been one of "them".

Which one, if any do you find the most unsettling? Can you give me one that does? Would number 1, number 3 or number 4 have put their own safety in jeopardy if they had used the men's room instead of the ladies? Do lesbians also make you uncomfortable?

I don't entirely disagree that any of these might have made you uncomfortable but by the same token, shouldn't a transgender person not have to put their own self at risk just to pee? In your mind, is there some equitable way to work this out? I don't have any answers but would certainly welcome your dialog and input to further this discussion. Tips on getting gum out of hair would be good too!

Thank you! Now I have to pee.
►eKay◄

originally posted by: Metallicus
I like John Oliver and had just completed watching his show when I saw this thread. I have a hard time with the bathroom issue for a couple of reasons. One, it makes me extremely uncomfortable to be in a bathroom with someone of the opposite sex even if they identify with my sex. Second, I feel uncomfortable with children being in the bathroom with someone of the opposite sex regardless of their perception of their gender.

I am not saying I know what to do with this issue or how to handle it, but frankly, people can be rightfully uncomfortable with this situation and their comfort isn't being considered by the transgender community.

Why not just have unisex bathrooms? Private stalls with locks on them and be done with it. Everyone seems to get along fine with unisex bathrooms in their homes or small businesses that only have one.

originally posted by: GENERAL EYES
a reply to: JadeStar

Transition - one who has yet to change over to the physical bits and pieces in concurrence with the assignment of that particular restroom.

Ok. I understand.

You aren't alone in this concern and might be interested to know that there are even some who have undergone the change over of the physical bits and pieces who share your concern.

It does raise a few questions though.

How would any such law be enforced?

Would every restroom have to have some kind of terahertz full body scanner like the naked body scanners that the TSA uses at airports to see if someone is bringing weapons onto a plane?

That seems extremely totalitarian to me.

Also, doesn't it stand to reason that sexual predators could very well be the same sex as the restroom? In other words such an extreme law banning transgender people from the bathroom of the gender they present, would do nothing to stop gay or lesbian sexual predators from being able to be predators in restrooms preying upon people the same sex as themselves. And since being trans* is like 1-in-4000 as opposed to homosexuality which is like 1-in-10 wouldn't it thus be far more likely that a sexual predator would be of the same sex as the victim rather than someone of the opposite sex falsely claiming that they were trans to prey upon people of the opposite sex?

I understand your concern but as far as I know there has not been a huge number of sexual predators pretending to be trans to access restrooms even though it's been legal to use the restroom of the gender one presents for almost 30 years in some states.

So I'd suspect that this hypothetical situation is quite rare in reality but the use of it as a scare tactic by those who like to use it to cause division between pre-operative transsexuals or non-operative transgender people and those of us who like me or Ekron have completed surgery or all trans* women from non-trans women is far more common.

It is a "divide and conquer" tactic based on an extremely rare (but admittedly very scary) scenario.

And what would someone who looked like me but who didn't have reassignment surgery do? Use the men's room? Wouldn't that place that person potentially in more danger than those in the hypothetical situation you raised?

I hope that doesn't sound rude....I know many Transgender can't afford to or don't wish to undergo the knife.

This is true and they statistically are far more often those who are most at risk of being the victim of violence or sexual predators.

I'd just hate for a sex-predator male to corner a young or elderly lady alone in the Ladies room by claiming "feeling like a female" prior to entry

I am fairly certain that such a predator could find easier ways to prey upon either of those ladies than to go through the trouble to present as their opposite sex.

- or conversely, a male who still retains the female sex characteristics being brutally raped in the men's room by a bunch of guys who have tailed him in there under suspicion with intent to do harm.

And what do you think that same bunch of guys would have done to me at age 15 or 16 prior to my operation if I went to use the men's room?

You see, in both hypothetical cases, the problem is not with the restroom but with the predators themselves.

So, i don't think banning legitimate trans people from the restroom of the gender they present would cut down on the amount of sexual predators. The only thing which could do that might be more effective policing to find sexual predators before they can victimize anyone of any gender.

Otherwise, what the litmus test you propose for bathroom entry would almost certainly do is cause a lot more trans people, specifically transgender women, to be far more vulnerable to violence when they already are at a substantially higher risk to begin with.

According to the FBI and SPLC something like 1-in-12 transgender women are murdered in the US every year, that number goes up when you include other forms of violence such as rape or assault.

So some might say, "well why not have just a third restroom for trans people". Beyond just the crazy amount of money that would cost for what is fairly small minority of society, such restrooms themselves quite likely could attract those unsavory people you are worried about for two reasons:

1) They would know anyone entering or leaving one was somehow different.

2) Those caught victimizing those who are somehow different often get off lightly as the victim as their attorneys use the victim's difference to sway people into believing that somehow the victim is the guilty party. ie: "She deserved it. Look how she was dressed."

Sound familiar?

I'm just tired of sexual assaults happening to people.

So am I. So are a lot of people but it's not like there are throngs of men pretending to be trans to sexually assault women. They find far less complicated ways to assault us.

Hence my concerns.

Your concerns are valid but I hope I have helped illustrate why they are misplaced in the case of "the bathroom issue".

That issue is an argument which is used to manipulate people against us and ourselves against each other. It's just like the transgender equivalent of the old "if a woman can marry a woman or a man can marry a man then what's to stop someone from marrying their dog?" hypothetical that often got thrown out against marriage equality.

Please don't fall for it.

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: mc_squared

Yes, open dialog is vital to understanding, as long as you can come to it with an open enough mind to not start throwing slurs at the first signs of disagreement, or misunderstanding.

i say this about Both sides

Agreed.

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
People wanna tranny out let them shake it like they want. I like to wear me a mean dress on occasion and strut my stuff. You got a problem with that? Your deal.

Pics or it didn't happen lol just kidding! Have fun!

originally posted by: EKron

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
People wanna tranny out let them shake it like they want. I like to wear me a mean dress on occasion and strut my stuff. You got a problem with that? Your deal.

Excuse me? I'll be as polite and delicate as possible and assume you are just and imbecile, but "tranny" is a complete and total slur. You've now completely established your ignorance and total lack of civility and have no business being in this thread. Go home, please and have a nice day somewhere else.

Thank you.

Oh dear.

Here might be another case where there is a generational divide.

Ekron - I do not think pl3bscheese meant you or I or anyone any harm. They were calling themselves a tranny. While, I personally detest that word and feel it is still a slur I know that there are girls my age and younger who use that word or trap to describe themselves and heard both used affectionately by those with an attraction to trans* women.

It is still a slur if used as a slur but there are those who believe in defusing the power of the slur by using it in a different way. (i know, i know, I hate that too!)

I guess it is like the "N-word" in that respect.

I would never use neither the N-word nor the word "tranny". Neither to describe myself and most certainly NEVER to describe anyone else.

I am on the fence regarding "trap" though. I think that one is kinda cute in a way and have never heard it used in a derogatory way more like a guy at a rave or club saying to his friend something like "damn she's sexy, trap or not I'd still go there.", etc.


pl3bscheese - language matters, while I know a fair number of trans* girls or young trans women have started using the term tranny to describe themselves (and you used it as a verb to describe what you like to get up to doing yourself), for older people like Ekron that word is extremely hurtful and should NEVER be used in polite conversation with anyone of any age unless they know you very well and know that you don' use it in a mean way. I blame "tranny porn" for it's rising use, a girl I know from my town who is about my age who has done webcam work uses it to describe herself and I cringe every time I hear it.

I hope that helps.

originally posted by: Metallicus
I like John Oliver and had just completed watching his show when I saw this thread. I have a hard time with the bathroom issue for a couple of reasons. One, it makes me extremely uncomfortable to be in a bathroom with someone of the opposite sex even if they identify with my sex. Second, I feel uncomfortable with children being in the bathroom with someone of the opposite sex regardless of their perception of their gender.

I am not saying I know what to do with this issue or how to handle it, but frankly, people can be rightfully uncomfortable with this situation and their comfort isn't being considered by the transgender community.

Perhaps because the problem of you feeling uncomfortable is not the fault of the transgender community (who have gone to great pains to educate people like yourself on these issues but who have also been traditionally ignored).

People fear those they do not know.

Here is a personal anecdote:

Six months after the start of my sophomore year in high school, the parents of a girl who wasn't even in my homeroom or even on the same floor as my homeroom went to the principal and school administrators with similar concerns over me using the girls rooms. The principal assured them everything was ok and furnished them letters from the school nurse, my endocrinologist, my GP and the psychologist I was seeing as well as the child psychologist who had advised my parents many years before when they first start letting me live as I am.

None of that mattered to them. All that mattered was their daughter had heard that I "was born a boy" and shouldn't be using the girls room.

So the principal told them that she understood their concerns but that perhaps it might be a good idea to have a friendly meeting with me, the school nurse most importantly, my parents.

Long story short, we all met for lunch with the principal and that's when they realized I was neither "a boy dressed as a girl" nor any sort of sexual perv.

The tl;dr version:

After getting off to a very cold start with cold stares of distrust in both direction they started to realized my parents were good people who loved and were trying to do the best they could for me just as they for their daughter. This happened only after my parents gave them a brief synopsis, of my childhood history and why they allowed me to start living my truth at age 7.

They listened intently, to my mom and dad's fears about me potentially being forced to use the boys room, what kind of disruption that would cause and how that could potentially place me in a more dangerous situation than they had initially feared that their daughter was in by me being allowed to use the restroom.

My dad had the "drop the mic" moment when he asked her dad, "what if your daughter had been born like mine? would you want her going to the bathroom with boys?"

Dead silence.

It was only after that personal meeting with my parents and I that, that girl's parents realize that my parents were not so different than themselves. felt comfortable and withdrew their objections, And with that we all breathed a sigh of relief.

Very easy for us to fear and mistrust people and situations which we are not familiar with or know much about.