Flags, Symbols, and the power we give them

Many won't like this, but I think the recent sudden explosion of this controversy about the confederate flag is bat# crazy, and just the latest example of how PC is getting way out of hand.
The culprit? The internet.

My theory being that
1) over years of being able to express one's point of views and connect with other like minded individuals, in the privacy and anonymity of their own homes (although we all know that is just an illusion), the internet is not enough anymore and it's all now trickling into 'real life'
2) coupled with our constantly growing need for new trends, external drama, polemic, excitement (because at the same time this same technology and other venues of entertainment have distanced us from living our own lives)
3) all this leading to us becoming so insecure and neurotic that we let the actions of a few deranged psychos dictate how we and others should start living.
Sorry for the rant, where was I?

Oh yes, flags and symbols.
That's all they are, iconography.
The only meaning they have, what we choose to.

I read of people defending the controversy likening it to the Nazi flag, their point being "hey, if that's ok, why not fly the Swastika everywhere as well?"
Well my friends, yes, the Nazi flag does conjure up one of the greatest atrocities that we ever witnessed.
But you fail to understand that even that symbol is an illusion. The swastika having been taken and distorted by a lunatic, from ancient Hinduist/Eastern symbolism (a quick search tells us the sanskrit meaning: Well being, Good existence), among other cultures over the world. And one of its original meanings was of good fortune and prosperity.

Lynyrd Skynyrd have flown the Confederate flag since the 70's, and like a lot of people when I see that flag, Sweet Home Alabama starts playing in my head.
It's a song and a band loved by all sorts of people, white, black, blue, americans, and the rest of the world.
(sad that just came across an article claiming that even them are considering to stop using the flag)
And to me just like a great deal of other music fans, it's a symbol of not just the band, but also of a special place in the history of music, rock and blues specifically.

Yes, the South's past is stained with the sweat and blood of slaves and of the Civil War.
Banning a flag, an object, won't change that.
And as long as this society stands, racism will exist. It doesn't need no #damned flag to survive.

But I will never tire to stress this out, why are we ever increasingly and stubbornly focusing on # that happened in the past?

Just sad that we have this incredible power and choose to focus on things that further keep us apart, things that happened in the past and constantly coming up with new ways to shout Scandal!

And isn't it ironic that all these measures and laws stemming from the power of Information claiming to benefit all and bring all of us together, are actually widening the rift?

I'm still young, and I always wanted to be alive and play with my grandchildren one day, but If this is the direction we are going, I don't want children nevermind grandchildren.


Disclaimer: No, I do not want full internet regulation and yes I believe in a free internet.
I do not offer a solution here, I don't have one (well I have an idea but it involves a complete reboot to our 'system', but that's another story)

Because the new agenda is for eroding western society and all it stands for.

The victim culture is upon us, the victim status perceived moral high ground and emotional diatribe that inevitably accompanies it is all too obvious. They fail to see that theirs is not a high ground and that they are the worst offenders of freedom of speech, thought and belief.

Nah. give most of the internment the same credibility my generation used to give billboard ads on the side of the road:

It catches your eye, you note it and drive on by.

a reply to: theabsolutetruth

Yeah, but I think 'victim culture' is just one of the side effects of our current system.
And I have some trouble with the word agenda, as I still am unsure if and who has an agenda.
Sometimes I think even that is just our own creation.
Who in your opinion has this new agenda?, honestly curious

a reply to: athousandlives

There's a well-known poem by John Agard that sums up all this recent BS about flags:

What's that fluttering in a breeze?
Its just a piece of cloth
that brings a nation to its knees.


What's that unfurling from a pole?
It's just a piece of cloth
that makes the guts of men grow bold.


What's that rising over a tent?
It's just a piece of cloth
that dares the coward to relent.


What's that flying across a field?
It's just a piece of cloth
that will outlive the blood you bleed.


How can I possess such a cloth?
Just ask for a flag my friend.
Then bind your conscience to the end.

link

It's just a piece of cloth. The symbolism people attach and project upon the cloth is just human nature. The Confederate Flag was one of my favourites as a kid because I love rock n roll and the Dukes of Hazard. At 6-7 years old, I was a white English kid wearing a bootlace tie that had an eagle and confederate flag - not a racist thought in my head. No patriotism for the South and I still love that flag.

In England, nobody flew the St George for decades because it had been stolen by our white supremacists. It became acceptable again through football in the mid-90s. Our flags mean what ever we want them to mean. On St George's Day, I wear a St George flag on my tie and still have no time for racism or jingoism.

Back on that rock n roll thing, my favourite Elvis song is American Trilogy. I've sung it in the shower for years and I'm not about to stop because someone's decided that love of the South equals racism. The Confederate Flag means 1950s rock n roll to me and roadside diners.

a reply to: athousandlives

As someone with an interest in psychology and sociology I have to say that you're missing out on a massive part of the story.

We are a tribal species.
We find groups to conform to, collectives to be a part of, subcultures to weave into our personalities, and the symbols that come with them are a rallying point.

Every collective of people has a symbol, often more than one.

The KKK - a hood
Anonymous - a mask
IS - a flag
Catholic Church - a Crucifix
Nazis - a Swastika
Boy Scouts - a badge
Nations - a flag
Political parties - a logo
Corporations - a brand

On and on and on.
Every collective of people has a symbol they attach to their collective, and this example is just another. The Confederate flag has become a symbol, and it's a symbol for a group of people who are generally ignorant, racist, hateful etc. I know some might not like that fact, but whether they like it or not that is indeed what it has become for the MAJORITY of people.

Now, no one is telling you that you can't fly it, wear it, show it off... do what you like. What people are rejecting is the notion that a government (regional or otherwise) responsible for representing ALL citizens, would align itself with such a symbol.

The flag represents hatred to many.
The regional government has a DUTY to represent ALL.
No regional government should be able to fly that flag knowing that it represents ignorance and hate to so many of their own citizens.

Again, the individual can do what they like, because they are not responsible for representing all of the public. The individual can have that symbol tattooed on their damn forehead if they want, they are not the ones collecting taxes from all citizens to provide services to all citizens as an elected official.

As for the Internet, all the Internet has done is give people a voice and spread awareness of the story. I guess that sucks for those on the wrong side of society, given that most of society is decent and loathes this symbol of hatred. If the awareness and involvement of millions of people through the Internet moves our societies in the right direction, as it seems to be doing so often, then I think that's a great thing.

Also, it seems to me that most of those who complain that something is "political correctness gone mad!!!" are really just complaining that the society they live in thinks their ignorant views are unacceptable, and they hate being reminded of how backward they are as an individual within our society

If you think society rejecting a symbol of ignorance and hatred is "too PC", then you're probably a racist.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Thanks for the comment and the poem Kandinsky.
Speaking of the St George brings also to mind ultranationalism and politics in football, certain clubs with old fascist imagery in their flags and emblems like Lazio and others.
Anyways, agreed with the rock n roll imagery, it just isnt the same without that

Well said and I could not agree more.
I would like to address what you wrote here:

But I will never tire to stress this out, why are we ever increasingly and stubbornly focusing on # that happened in the past?

That's easy. Because there aren't enough recent incidents to give blanket condemnation to an entire segment of the population. We hear "White people are racist" all the time but it doesn't hold much water so what else can they do? Drag up the past from a time where most people were in fact racist and associate them with people of today.

It's a pathetic tactic if you ask me.
The subject has been hashed out a hundred times before already.
Nobody was upset over a flag until about a week ago.
This is all just a grand distraction to keep everybody from watching what the government is up to.

Symbols only have the power we give them, they have no intrinsic power of their own.

a reply to: Rocker2013

Also, it seems to me that most of those who complain that something is "political correctness gone mad!!!" are really just complaining that the society they live in thinks their ignorant views are unacceptable, and they hate being reminded of how backward they are as an individual within our society

If you think society rejecting a symbol of ignorance and hatred is "too PC", then you're probably a racist.

Wow..... really?
How'd you come to that conclusion from what I wrote?
I totally agree that we are a tribal species, and we've been coming together under symbols since we first walked the earth.
My point which you have missed (or maybe I havent made clear enough) is that symbols change meaning overtime, sometimes by our own conscious choice or by mere circumstance.
I'm only using the confederate flag as an example, but it does have so many meanings for different people.
Choosing to focus on only the negative ones, that sir, no offence intended, is ignorant.

a reply to: athousandlives

This entire world is symbol.. How do you think you talk to me? With letters? With vibrations in the air? With electrons?
Symbols do mean things.. Descriptions of what is not I. It is why we are here.

Whatever is not symbol cannot be said, or shown, or seen, or heard. It is something so hard to find if you are looking anywhere.

How do you think a flag comes about? It's a way of picking teams/clubs/groups/countries/ideals.. And other people can stand next to you, like I agree.. It's a visual queue.

Your avatar is your flag. I know all sorts of things from that.
Why are you supporting symbols?

the ATS flag is on the top left, and twitter flag all over the sides of the screen.
I havn't seen the republican and democrat flags in some time, not sure how I managed that, but anyway.
Teams have flags.. They are shorthand.. Instead of naming off all the players and the coaches, and every detail, you just say the Lakers.

Do you like the RED CROSS flag? it says do not attack me I am healing.. Or the white flag? IT says don't shoot me I give up. That is just a symbol, why give it power? SO we can talk... That's why. Brings to mind babel..

people fight over words and symbols being in use, because whoever controls symbols controls the power.. PC police, are using control techniques. Culture is your operating system. Mine, without the TV, it's a bit weird.

No symbols..
That's not in the matrix.
godly.

G,day mate
i noticed your question on the board and business forum
and saw the list of states and companies thinking of bans on the confederate flag
warner bros. Is on the list
they made a few westerns about the civil war and the confederate flag is shown
wonder how they intend to deal wih that one
You lot have done a lot of threads over this flag issue
i wonder what you are being sidetracked from
good luck and i hope logic prevails

but what if one found out that the Confederate Flag and the Nazi Flag are in fact related?

What if I suggested that the NATO Flag seems to be a successful attempt to rehabilitate both and that a NATO failure against ISIS could put the NATO Flag in a similar category?

Nebuchadnezzar failed but he was rehabilitated...after awhile.

if what I wrote makes no sense...do you ever have any hope of understanding the reason for the past week and will you forever travel into the future backwards.

a reply to: Reverbs

Agree with everything you said there, I guess sometimes I get overwhelmed by all this nonsense.

Symbols do mean things.. Descriptions of what is not I. It is why we are here.

would you like to explain that part, why is that why we are here?

a reply to: athousandlives

Banning a flag, an object, won't change that.

Has the Confederate flag been banned? Or is a state government deciding that they don't want to fly it?

I haven't seen anything about laws preventing people from doing so. Isn't that what a ban would entail?

a reply to: athousandlives
Example: God sent his rainbow to Earth to show as a promise that he would not destroy the planet with another flood.
The LGBFT community hijack this symbol of Gods loving promise and turn it into a perverse symbol of intolerance.

a reply to: Asktheanimals

Thanks asktheanimals, If this really is all just a tactic to distract us from something else, no matter how pathetic it is, it looks like it's working.
I'm just glad to see there are still those who even in the midst of the constant bombardment of BS, manage to see past it all, unfortunately it's only a minority

a reply to: Violater1

God sent his rainbow to Earth to show as a promise that he would not destroy the planet with another flood.

Funny, I thought rainbows were the result of refraction. But how's He going to do it next time if not by flood?

The LGBFT community hijack this symbol of Gods loving promise and turn it into a perverse symbol of intolerance.

What is the LGBFT community? You know the rainbow has more than one sybolic meaning, right?

a reply to: Phage

I don't know, forgive me I'm not the strongest wordsmith, but going with what information goes around it seems a lot of people are calling it a 'ban'
article
article 2
article 3

a reply to: athousandlives

it seems a lot of people are calling it a 'ban'

Yes. I know. Words like that tend to rile people up, even when they aren't accurate.

There is nothing preventing you from buying or flying a Confederate flag.

a reply to: Phage

Oh I know, I hear sales have gone through the roof for flag makers who make them.
Now what I find ridiculous is besides what certain states have done also companies like Amazon and such 'banning' the sales of related merchandise with a flag on them.