10 Pro-Gun Myths, Shot Down

originally posted by: KawRider9
a reply to: JUhrman

The problem with strict regulation, is that none of our 57 States are on the same page with regulations. Hell, regulations vary from City to City in every State.

I don't see how it's a problem. Isn't it how it works in the US on a vast majority of topics? Isn't cannabis allowed in some states and forbidden in others? Is it causing problems?

You change state you change laws, seems pretty normal to me.

I never expected the US states to act according to my desires. I'm saying I'm in favor of strict regulation but of course I know very well each state will have their own laws. And given the traditional position of Americans on the firearm debate I don't see how my opinion is going to be widely shared in the US.



This thread is about finding counter-arguments to "debunk" the facts in the OP. All I was saying is that there seems to be a knee jerk reaction among Americans each time the word gun is mentioned, and people from both sides start to manipulate, deform, lie instead of having a respectful and critical discussion on the topic. It's sad that is all.

Using words like "gun grabbing" for example is one of these manipulations I was talking about and it's actually also the first point of the OP.

originally posted by: JUhrman
a reply to: NavyDoc

I'm sorry you think regulation and restriction have the same meaning.

That must explain why I can't have a discussion with you.


I think people have the right to be armed, as per the their constitution.

I don't think it gives them the right to own any kind of firearm. This is subject to interpretation and where we agree to disagree.


Also I never wrote "full-auto" in the thread yo talk about (though I willingly admit I'm not a firearm expert). More distortion of my words it wouldn't be the first time.

And you claim pro-gun rights people are deceptive?

Here's a quote:

Surely prohibiting full-autoweapons and doing more background checks are minor differences and absolutely not some of the only things gun proponents have been asking... Really minor differences...

Here's the page: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Quote:

Then why are Americans mad when there are mention of prohibiting automatic weapons

Page:www.abovetopsecret.com...

And you have the temerity to say that we are deceptive?

Obviously you want to restrict and regulate something you know little about. Ignorance and fear oft go hand in hand.

You do want prohibitions on certain types of guns--you said it right there.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
You do want prohibitions on certain types of guns--you said it right there.

I don't deny it. I even said it here in this thread too, in the post you responded to.

I don't think it gives them the right to own any kind of firearm. This is subject to interpretation and where we agree to disagree

It doesn't mean I think American can't have guns.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
You already have the deluded idea from that other thread where you think that full-auto is non-regulated in the US.

You can now see in your quotes from me I never said full auto aren't regulated in the US. I said they aren't fully banned like in Switzerland. I don't see how this is delusion.

a reply to: Kapusta

Mass shootings HAVE been prevented by a person with a gun. Do your homework. Yes, owning a dangerous thing increases the likelihood of danger. Congrats on your attempt to prove that. It doesn't change a thing. How many gun owners shoot another person, compared to the total number of gun owners? Who ARE the people committing crimes with guns? What laws currently exist that aren't enforced, and how would you like divert funds to pay for that to be fixed? Guns aren't going anywhere. Ask Chicago. Especially when our own executive branch doesn't seem to have a problem with sending them to criminals in Mexico who don't seem to mind crossing borders illegally.

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: NavyDoc
You do want prohibitions on certain types of guns--you said it right there.

I don't deny it. I even said it here in this thread too, in the post you responded to.

I don't think it gives them the right to own any kind of firearm. This is subject to interpretation and where we agree to disagree

It doesn't mean I think American can't have guns.

But that's the sleight of hand the left uses. "We'll let you keep a shotgun at the club, so we really don't want to BAN guns." It's disingenuous and intentionally deceptive. It's like saying, that if I let you keep one book and one book only, I really don't want to ban books.

Caught you on the "full-auto" claim, didn't I?

originally posted by: NavyDoc

Caught you on the "full-auto" claim, didn't I?

Caught me how?

originally posted by: NavyDoc
You already have the deluded idea from that other thread where you think that full-auto is non-regulated in the US.

You can now see in your quotes from me I never said full auto aren't regulated in the US. I said they aren't fully banned like in Switzerland. I don't see how this is delusion.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
But that's the sleight of hand the left uses.

Thank you ! Thank you so much for illustrating the point someone doubted previously about how some people reduce this all to a left/right issue!

The guy wasn't believing me I knew I wasn't crazy...

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: NavyDoc
But that's the sleight of hand the left uses.

Thank you ! Thank you so much for illustrating the point someone doubted previously about how some people reduce this all to a left/right issue!

The guy wasn't believing me I knew I wasn't crazy...

Gun control has been the traditional bailywick of the left in the US.

I see you ignore the other points.

I see you ignore the fact that you did mention "full-auto" when you denied it.

I see you ignore the fact that you did call for bans of various types of firearms.

I see you ignore the fact that I pointed out that wanting to ban some guns is like just wanting to ban "some books."

Thank you for being living proof of the dishonesty and lack of knowledge and the dodging and twisting of the anti-gun rights crowd.

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: NavyDoc

Caught you on the "full-auto" claim, didn't I?

Caught me how?

originally posted by: NavyDoc
You already have the deluded idea from that other thread where you think that full-auto is non-regulated in the US.

You can now see in your quotes from me I never said full auto aren't regulated in the US. I said they aren't fully banned like in Switzerland. I don't see how this is delusion.

You wrote this, right on the previous page:

Also I never wrote "full-auto" in the thread yo talk about (though I willingly admit I'm not a firearm expert). More distortion of my words it wouldn't be the first time.

I showed that you certainly did write "full-auto" and I proved it. Let me quote you again:

Surely prohibiting full-auto weapons and doing more background checks are minor differences and absolutely not some of the only things gun proponents have been asking... Really minor differences...

You were untruthful when you said you never wrote that.

This is your common schtick---you say something completely ignorant, then when get called on it, try to squirm out of it, and then when called on that, try to change to goalposts.

Like I pointed out--rather typical of the anti-gun rights crowd.

originally posted by: JUhrman
Yes and I thought all these arguments were quite solid and the statistics supporting them interesting.

Much more than the usual "Urrh dem will try to grab ar guns!!!" nonsense plaguing gun threads.

Then maybe you shouldn't concern yourself with the threads and actually do some real research into these claims. Saying things like, "Actually they looks like perfectly valid arguments...," does not prove that the arguments are correct. The best fabricated arguments are ones that appear perfectly valid to those not wanting to research them.

Nice generalization of both (a) "the pro-gun crowd" (in your first response) and (b) using ignorant spelling and language to imply that pro-gun people are imbeciles. You really proved a point, just not the one you were trying to make.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
This is your common schtick---you say something completely ignorant, then when get called on it, try to squirm out of it, and then when called on that, try to change to goalposts.

Absolutely-- I see this from him time and time again. My advice...stop engaging in the pointless battle. I accidentally took the bait, too :/

The umpteenth zillion thread on this subject,

1. It's a clear right spelled out in Constitution, reinforced with "shall not be infringed" unlike other amendments.

2. There are already stiff penalties on the books, both federal and state for misuse of 2A rights. Demand no plea bargaining and most of the problem will go away.

3. We have laws against murder, assault, threatening. No additional law will change anything.

4. The taking of psychotropic and illegal drugs is already a disqualifier for purchase of firearms. A simple database to reference these disqualifiers is obviously lacking or not updated in timely fashion.

5. No amount of law or handwringing will stop a crazy person bound and determined to cause harm be it by firearm or a plethora of other means.

Living in England where it is illegal to posses a firearm i've learnt one thing. Banning firearms only stop the innocent.

originally posted by: Kapusta
Note: I am pro gun , my reason for posting this because it really got under my skin so and would like to ask for your help in countering these supposed "facts".

Also due to T&C I'll only be able to post about 5 of the ten facts and the rest are going to have to be read at the source .
The links to all the studies where the information was gathered can also be found on the site.

Thank you in advance .



Myth #1: They're coming for your guns.
Fact-check:

No one knows the exact number of guns in America, but it's clear there's no practical way to round them all up (never mind that no one in Washington is proposing this). Yet if you fantasize about rifle-toting citizens facing down the government, you'll rest easy knowing that America's roughly 80 million gun owners already have the feds and cops outgunned by a factor of around 79 to 1.

Pfft , if that pic is an accurate depiction of figures , then I would say .... When does the revolution start ?

Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check:

People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates. Also, gun death rates tend to be higher in states with higher rates of gun ownership. Gun death rates are generally lower in states with restrictions such as assault-weapons bans or safe-storage requirements. Update: A recent study looking at 30 years of homicide data in all 50 states found that for every one percent increase in a state's gun ownership rate, there is a nearly one percent increase in its firearm homicide rate.

Myth #3: An armed society is a polite society.
Fact-check:

Drivers who carry guns are 44% more likely than unarmed drivers to make obscene gestures at other motorists, and 77% more likely to follow them aggressively.
• Among Texans convicted of serious crimes, those with concealed-handgun licenses were sentenced for threatening someone with a firearm 4.8 times more than those without.
• In states with Stand Your Ground and other laws making it easier to shoot in self-defense, those policies have been linked to a 7 to 10% increase in homicides.

Myth #4: More good guys with guns can stop rampaging bad guys.
Fact-check:

Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years: 0
• Chances that a shooting at an ER involves guns taken from guards: 1 in 5

Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check:

Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.
• 43% of homes with guns and kids have at least one unlocked firearm.
• In one experiment, one third of 8-to-12-year-old boys who found a handgun pulled the trigger.

I stated I needed your help in countering these facts , reason being , On my FB I am friends with Steven Wozniak ( yes its his real FB page) and he has been posting ,recently, allot of anti gun stuff , So I am hoping to stick it to him with counter facts. Its strange , Steven seems to be Anti police state but at the same time hes anti guns ....
Anti Gun facts ,hogwash link

Time for me to do some homework !

Thanks again !

Kap

Here you go bro! Link

gunwatch.blogspot.com...

Good list is good

originally posted by: JUhrman

originally posted by: NavyDoc
But that's the sleight of hand the left uses.

Thank you ! Thank you so much for illustrating the point someone doubted previously about how some people reduce this all to a left/right issue!

The guy wasn't believing me I knew I wasn't crazy...

You're not crazy. For some people it is all about left vs. right when it comes to 2nd amendment issues. In fact, that mindset is what has given rise to the false notion that only "true American patriots" are conservative republican gun owners.

For those of us that may lean left politically, and are pro-2nd amendment gun owners, it becomes hard to side with them on the fight against the 2nd when they articulate their right as if they were knuckle-dragging buffoons.

Was this a joke? Did someone do any research or just make stuff up?

As long as there are cowards, the fight for strict gun regulation will get no where.

originally posted by: krosnos
As long as there are cowards, the fight for strict gun regulation will get no where.

As long as there are nanny state hoplophobic sissies that want to control everything and everybody,the fight for gun control will go no where.

a reply to: Kapusta

Im glad it got under your skin haha

FACTS do that to you people who are too uneducated to see the truth.

You DO NOT deserve your guns at all...the highest prison population on earth and the dumbest.

You are allowed them only cos of that piece of paper you people know nothing about except the 2nd amendment.

THERE ARE NO COUNTER TO THESE FACTS ON THIS OP THREAD