Is satan a Dragon? Are Dragons Dinosaurs?

a reply to: cooperton

You're being rude and specist.

You mean you're genuinely claiming that the Earth is six thousand years old?

You mean you seriously believe the things you say about viruses, dragons and the Big Bang?

I find this, frankly, impossible to believe — unless, of course, you are quite, quite mad.

I'm having a discussion, direct your hate to me as a direct message so the thread does not get derailed, constructive rebuttals are encouraged.

Then address the very specific questions I directed at you in my second post.

If the cultures who had "myths" about dragons in the old world (Asia, Europe, Africa, australia, etc) were in contact with the aztecs, mayans, and other civilizations of the new world (americas), then they would have described this communication in their written records.

You have no idea how little history has actually been recorded — even the history of Europe. Euripides, the greatest Athenian playwright, wrote ninety plays. How many have survived? Fifteen or so. And that's a good survival rate.

It is always the ignorant who overestimate the extent of what is known. You see it all the time on this forum.

Shouldn't you be happy there is a God and a way out of this mess we've made?

No. I am not stupid enough to believe such nonsense.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: cooperton

If the cultures who had "myths" about dragons in the old world (Asia, Europe, Africa, australia, etc) were in contact with the aztecs, mayans, and other civilizations of the new world (americas), then they would have described this communication in their written records.

You have no idea how little history has actually been recorded — even the history of Europe.

Both St George's (England) and Beowulf's (Written in Old English, but takes place in Denmark) dragon were described in English recorded history, which is a testament to the significance of the depictions of these dragons. Why would the literate waste their time writing fake stories?

This is historical evidence that implies dragons/dinosaurs were alive the same time as humans, can you give me evidence otherwise? Also, I never thanked you for implying I am a neanderthal, with a larger cranial capacity than you. Gotta love the Freudian slip.

a reply to: cooperton

Please meme me when you write stuff your mind is awesome!

Satan is a serpent not Lucifer.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: cooperton

If the cultures who had "myths" about dragons in the old world (Asia, Europe, Africa, australia, etc) were in contact with the aztecs, mayans, and other civilizations of the new world (americas), then they would have described this communication in their written records.

You have no idea how little history has actually been recorded — even the history of Europe.

Both St George's (England) and Beowulf's (Written in Old English, but takes place in Denmark) dragon were described in English recorded history, which is a testament to the significance of the depictions of these dragons. Why would the literate waste their time writing fake stories?

This is historical evidence that implies dragons/dinosaurs were alive the same time as humans, can you give me evidence otherwise? Also, I never thanked you for implying I am a neanderthal, with a larger cranial capacity than you. Gotta love the Freudian slip.

If you message me I can explain why we have been aging..I am very impressed with your writings and I thank you for them.

"Satan" is a goat... a scapegoat.

i havnt even read the entire topic yet sorry, but this is a great find. i have had this idea for a longer time aswell
but you have found many perfect references in the bible fitting this theory, good job really, keep diggin!

The dragon is a reptillian, how would we draw a reptile that has unlocked the ability to fly using technology?
early humans did not know of technology or machines, so to describe this in pictures to pass on to later generations, a
dragon with wings would tell us a reptillian could fly ( we just couldnt fathom how, all we knew is nature flies with wings).

Same thing today, if i were to see a discshaped object i could probably not (well i can but not many can i presume)
describe quickly how the disc or craft could fly in a simple drawing. i would probably draw a simple disc with wings
signifying the ability of flight. ( anyone else see the similarity of the word Dragon and the word Dogon, a very early (human?) species.

anyways " anything" different is always the scapegoat. if there were less serpentine beings in the total mix of beings, they
are pointed at as odd ones..... probably moved underground as some texts seem to tell us, ive seen the picture of the firmament online, with the underworld being INSIDE the earth, the firmament is meant to be round but one can never see its round when you are bound to the surface area of your planet.... and the early humans where right when they drew the stars IN the firmament aswell because our atmospheric border is the border where light is able to exist or comes into existence in a state we can observe and use it.... (the sun is a giant blacklight, or dark matter emitter that ignites on our atmosphere giving us light like a laser does, creating effect on its end (only on impact so not in between if no matter exists in between), or on impact with solid matter.
space itself being the inside black wall of a blacklight)

and i dont think reptillian beings are evil perse, or devils satans perse, they just look different, and all will have separate souls
and separate modus operandi, living by different rules of live with different perspectives on matters. their own agendas we dont know about
will seem like a conspiracy to us, even when they might mean well for us as a species, knowing more being evolved sooner, thus longer or more early in our time line. we mimic nature today, will a more advanced species that came into existence before us not be able to minic
nature even better, maybe so good we cant tell the difference. we are already filming earth from space up to a certain resolution. i bet
they have kept an eye on our development for a very, very long time. (guardian angel like sounds best to me as we are still here and the anunaki text descibe of a vow to protect us from outside interventions like they did theirselves).

theres a thing in the bible where alot of todays problems with homo sexuality come from.
if stated something like thou shalt not lie with another man or something similar. what if this was a rule
for the " gods" themselves, not being alowed to mix between species, so are prohibited to breed with man and woman of the human kind as this would surely deliver abominations.... many of the commandments should be read from the gods own perspectives
to see their actual meanings.... (priests just use their interpretations to keep us in line, they know knowledge is power) the bible has been formed from many perspectives of multiple gods into a one single god, and only a devil would try to deny this information. i think all of faiths are right, they just got their word from another god..... lets overcome faith, replace it with knowledge as best we can and
live happily ever after as a species now...

funny was just thinking of a stargate episode.... the idea is certainly not new......

www.cucirca.eu...

just after 13 minutes they also talk about a serpent being the Original satan...
now you could say this is sci fi, but the writer had to come up with it...
ive been rewatching stargate the movie and the series right now, and it
blows my mind after reading alot about the anunaki and the tablets and
how much the writers must have known about these tablets and tales
the hole series seems based on the anunaki. there is so increadibly many
funny funny wink wink remarks when you know the "conspiracy"
theories..... and so much metaphore in there for actual real things...
it blows my mind for sure, i can really really advicde youn to re watch it
and see if you understand what i mean after the first movie and ten eps.
also the series beginnings are already pretty dated, but still so increadibly
well preserved by time, its topics sometimes are still very modern and scify.
butt with todays knowledge of science added... man, we can see some things
come very close now that were sc ifi 20 years ago.

No, dragons are Serpent Races. Dino's are big chickens, so to speak. Birds and snakes are not the same thing.

Lizards and Snakes, Frogs and Turtles....reptiles!

Dino's more related to chickens and raptor birds.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Lysergic
a reply to: cooperton
I suppose vampires are real as well considering all the lore, history, and whatnot, its the same basis.

But vampires were not a part of mayan, aztec, incan art or myth. Thus vampires were likely a legend that geographically diffused from a certain region in Europe/Asia (Vlad the Impaler) and had no basis in reality. But, cannibalism occurred throughout the world, so vampires may be based off this. If the New World (Americas) and the Old World (europe, asia, etc) both had depictions of humanoids transforming into bats, then you would have an argument.

I think the Maya wpuld disagree with you here. There are vampire stories from every continent except for Antarctica and they existed in aboriginal form prior to comtact with Europeans(in the examples of New World vampire stories).

en.m.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: Lysergic
a reply to: cooperton

So why the sudden stop in the appearance of "dragons"?

Any large serpent creature after 1842 (first time dinosaurs were defined) would be called a dinosaur. Perhaps the Loch Ness Monster is not a hoax? Here is a more concrete example: www.creationscience.com... Also, the average size of fossilized dinosaur remains found are nothing larger than a sheep, so even crocodiles are living examples of dinosaurs among us today. There have been many alleged sightings of "dinosaurs" dinopedia.wikia.com... but we just dismiss them as crazy because we "know" (think) dinosaurs are completely extinct.

That is a cop out answer. If something was being referred to as a Dragon in 1840 it wouldnt magically be forgotten thst dragon was the frame of reference after 1842. Members if the Monitor Lizard family, which inc,udes Komodo Dragons, have been living near people for 10's of thousands of years. The African varieties grow to be. 6' or longer, the Komodo grows to be over 10' amd a currently extinct variety that was alive in Australia until a few thousand years ago could grow between 20 and 30 feet long. Stories of enormous lizards large enough to eat humans do not require living dinosaurs or misunderstanding of various radiometric dating methods to make them true.

This thread took a way different direction than I expected from see the original
post. I thought maybe ancient snake cults would get discussed. Even though
the snake isn't too much like a dragon there are some pretty large ones
documented in areas like the Amazon and maybe in other areas, also, especially
in past centuries.

Other large reptiles that I read about are the ancestors of modern crocodiles
and alligators. Some of these were truly giant creatures and they lived
concurrently with humans also.

Neither of these fly, breathe fire, or have feathers, but there must be
something to account for the near universal myth of dragons in human
history. Something that lived concurrently with man, not millions of years
earlier.

Is my understanding correct that the OP finds myths and legends shared around the word are more credible as having some truth to them, than those held by specific cultures in specific geographical locations?

As for previously mentioned dinosaur drawings/carvings. Without knowing which specific item you're talking about I can't research them for myself. However, you mentioned a Stegosaurus. I will assume this meant the carving in Cambodia, at the Ta Prohm temple? It is the most famous alleged stegosaurus carving that I am aware of.

Unfortunately for those who believe man and these creatures coexisted at some point, this particular piece of evidence falls short. www.paleo.cc...

originally posted by: peter vlar


I think the Maya wpuld disagree with you here. There are vampire stories from every continent except for Antarctica and they existed in aboriginal form prior to comtact with Europeans(in the examples of New World vampire stories).

en.m.wikipedia.org...

en.m.wikipedia.org...

The Mayan "bat god", Camazotz, has little to no resemblance to the old-world vampire. It is a bat. You know how they were able to depict this image of a bat? Because they observed bats. Just like they observed dragons (dinosaurs).

originally posted by: Lysergic
If something was being referred to as a Dragon in 1840 it wouldnt magically be forgotten thst dragon was the frame of reference after 1842.

Fossilized remains of very large lizards are all deemed dinosaurs, unless you can think of a time when someone claimed to have found dragon bones? And we claim dinosaurs are hundreds of millions of years old because we have never witnessed one in the recent past, but, we are mistaken, because dragon legends, all across the globe, are incidences of observing "dinosaurs".

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
...you mentioned a Stegosaurus. I will assume this meant the carving in Cambodia, at the Ta Prohm temple? It is the most famous alleged stegosaurus carving that I am aware of.

Unfortunately for those who believe man and these creatures coexisted at some point, this particular piece of evidence falls short. www.paleo.cc...

Well this is where we are mistaken, our "representation" of a stegosaurus would be limited to the fossilized tissue found in the ground. Whereas their direct observation may be able to help us elucidate some missing anatomical soft tissue that would have decomposed. Looking at an elephant skull, can you tell that it has huge ears? No. From fossilized remains, would we know if a stegosaurus had large ears, or some other large soft tissue aesthetic? No.

Regardless, we'll toss this one out as undecided, and examine the other examples:

protoceratops, brachiosaurus, ankylosaurus, tyranosaurus, nothosaurus, plateosaurus, techodontosaurus, corythosaurus, apatosaurus, edmotosaurus, saurolophus, brontosaurus. These references can all be found in this link www.genesispark.com...

This is just the dinosaur art, there is also the matter-of-fact style written accounts that we will have to go through next. God speed.

a reply to: cooperton

We were once called werewolves, something happened with the Vampyres in the 15th century in, and a huge conflict emerged and they almost wiped us out, then they tried the same thing again and again. We stayed in the Shadows, bided our time, didnt interfere. Waited until the time is right, the vampyres are weakened. We have never been stronger, they prey on you, we protect you.

Fur wouldn't show up on fossil's, but feathers would.
Dinosaurs wit...
Also Chinese Dragons are a chimera(mixture) of other animals...

In many other countries, folktales speak of the dragon having all the attributes of the other 11 creatures of the zodiac, this includes the whiskers of the Rat, the face and horns of the Ox, the claws and teeth of the Tiger, the belly of the Rabbit, the body of the Snake, the legs of the Horse, the beard of the Goat, the wit (or brain) of the Monkey, the crest of the Rooster, the ears of the Dog and the snout of the Pig.

If a Satans a Dinosaur, then it would have to have a brain the size of a house, and be proportionate enough to it body mass to have challenged Gods rule. Also I dont get the part where in the first few sentences of the Book of Job Satans among God and his company of Angels in the sky, but then is depicted as a giant whale like the white whale from Moby Dick of the sea?

originally posted by: cooperton
Well this is where we are mistaken, our "representation" of a stegosaurus would be limited to the fossilized tissue found in the ground. Whereas their direct observation may be able to help us elucidate some missing anatomical soft tissue that would have decomposed. Looking at an elephant skull, can you tell that it has huge ears? No. From fossilized remains, would we know if a stegosaurus had large ears, or some other large soft tissue aesthetic? No.

You may remain undecided on that particular carving. However I must point out that the carving is missing features that would have been evident from a living, or fossilized Stegosaurus. Perhaps most notably, the tail spikes.

From the source:

Another signigificant problem for the stegosaur adherents is the lack of tail spikes on the carving. These manacing weapons, often called "thagomizers" after a Gary Larson cartoon, are among the most unique and stunning features of stegosaurs, and not something an artist would easily overlook. The carving also shows front and hind legs of similar size, even though stegosaurs had rear legs far larger than the front legs. Moreover, two large projections are seen at the back of the head on the carved creature. No such features would be expected on a stegosaur. However, they could readily represent ears on a rhino (Figs. 7 & 8), or the folds or furrows of a chameleon neck frill (Fig 4a), or as noted earlier, the spikes on the head of a horned lizard (Fig. 4b). It seems unlikely that a carver familiar with living stegosaurs would neglect striking features such as long tail spikes, but add prominent features on the head that did not exist. If one argues that the image might be so stylized that this is possible, then no anatomic features of the creature can be trusted to be very realistic or meaningful. Indeed, as one blogger (Rogue, 2009) observed, if the carving is really supposed to be a Stegosaurus, it gets things remarkably wrong at both ends.

Briefly looking over your link, I see some interesting things. Some of those things highly resemble dinosaurs, in some ways at first glance at least. I will reserve final judgement on those until after I can do some fair research. Suffice to say from my point of view, they won't hold up to being actual dinosaurs. As for other images on that site, they are absurd leaps of the imagination. I see at least one admitted forgery in there as well (The Ica Stones).

At least a handful of what is presented on that site gets covered in the video I will link below. You may find it interesting. While you may not agree with everything presented, I think you may still enjoy it. Or at least find interesting.


Not sure at what point, but iirc this video also talks about English dragon myths and how he believes they evolved over time.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer

Briefly looking over your link, I see some interesting things. Some of those things highly resemble dinosaurs, in some ways at first glance at least. I will reserve final judgement on those until after I can do some fair research. Suffice to say from my point of view, they won't hold up to being actual dinosaurs.

I Appreciate you reading the link, although I insist you read it with a non-biased point of view.

As for other images on that site, they are absurd leaps of the imagination. I see at least one admitted forgery in there as well (The Ica Stones).

The Ica Stones are interesting, especially since he admitted that he was lying about admitting it was a forgery, some interesting stuff going on here. He quit his medical career for these stones, to leave your life for a forgery would be pretty ambitious. Funny though, he did not theorize that dinosaurs were younger, but that humans were hundreds of millions of years old. I'll check out your video and get back to you

originally posted by: Specimen

If a Satans a Dinosaur, then it would have to have a brain the size of a house, and be proportionate enough to it body mass to have challenged Gods rule. Also I dont get the part where in the first few sentences of the Book of Job Satans among God and his company of Angels in the sky, but then is depicted as a giant whale like the white whale from Moby Dick of the sea?

(the link you gave is broken) I think a lot of the Old Testament is so hard to understand because it is a way of life that we have completely lost touch with. The people were living to be hundreds and hundreds of years old, Enoch and Elijah were said to have eluded death, etc. They were much more in-tune with nature, as compared to when you look at us today we are completely alienated from nature.

The main point though, which has not really been discussed since the OP, is that Revelations 12:9 clearly indicates that the dragon (dinosaur) will lead humankind astray. Which is amazing that revelations predicted that (and also the coming of the world wide web www.abovetopsecret.com... [666 = www in Jewish Alphabet])

originally posted by: cooperton


Well this is where we are mistaken, our "representation" of a stegosaurus would be limited to the fossilized tissue found in the ground. Whereas their direct observation may be able to help us elucidate some missing anatomical soft tissue that would have decomposed. Looking at an elephant skull, can you tell that it has huge ears? No.

Actually, yes you can. One item of note is that on fossilized remains there is what we refer to as attachment point scarring. It tell you how large a muscle or tendon is and gives a lot of information in regards to what those muscles, tendons, etc... are holding on and the size of what is being held there.

From fossilized remains, would we know if a stegosaurus had large ears, or some other large soft tissue aesthetic? No.

You would though. There are several tools available that can give us a great deal of insight as to the yypes, shapes and sizes of soft tissue involved when we only have fossilized bone to work from.

Regardless, we'll toss this one out as undecided, and examine the other examples:

protoceratops, brachiosaurus, ankylosaurus, tyranosaurus, nothosaurus, plateosaurus, techodontosaurus, corythosaurus, apatosaurus, edmotosaurus, saurolophus, brontosaurus. These references can all be found in this link www.genesispark.com...

Can you coroborate any of those finding with an unbiased, peer reviewed source? The entire site reeks of putrified confirmation bias.

This is just the dinosaur art, there is also the matter-of-fact style written accounts that we will have to go through next. God speed.

Will any of these written accounts be dissected by actual scholars and published in reputable journals? Or will the source be more religious oriented blogs or websites?

In a day and age when even the Vatican has its own observatories and science departments where priests and cardinals trained in science with graduate degrees are publishing their work as well as making it available for peer review, it comes off as rather suspect and a bit fishy when information as presented as gospel truth(pun intended) but provides no citations or sources let alone any interest un publishing. The end reault is presented in threads like this where claims are made that are a bit fallacious such as dinosaurs allegedly being hundreds of millions of years old when they were still around in the range of tens of millions of years as the KT Event was 65MA or bringing up radiometric dating of millions of years old fossils and supporting the fault in the methodology by bringing up 14c dating. It demonstrates that a serious lack of due dilligence is taking place here in lieu of confirming religious proclivities.

When any object or remains are dated, there is never just one method used and then a date assigned. If a date can not be coroborated and independantly reproduced, then there is no date. Typically 3 dating methods are utilized to corroborate and assign. 14c for example is not used to date anything millions of years old let alone hundreds of millions of years old as ypu claim earlier in this thread. Its accuracy diminishes after ~60,000 years. There is always a margin of error included based on known variables as well. But i digress... There are many, many different methods of dating remains, artifcats or sites available to a researcher in the field. From dendrochronology to K/Ar uranium/thorium to stratigraphy with literally dozens in between each extreme.

Then theres the "blinders on" approach to acceptable mythologies for the OP. You insist that dinosaurs are real and the template for dragons because there are stories regarding dragons in diverse cultures across the world. You refuse to acknowledge the multitude of differences culturally and stylistically from one area to another yet attempt to impose just that limitation upon other supernatural creatures such as vampires. Either you're trolling here or you are parroting some religious sources and eschewing any due dilligence on your own end instead of dou g any fact checking to make sure your sources arent full of bovine excrement. And finally, your entire premise rests on circumstantial data and not any legit citations or evidence. Especially rrgarding your proposed timelime for the earyhs or humanities existence.

a reply to: cooperton

news.nationalgeographic.com...

By thinking we can ride them like horses and monster battles?