Shock Video: Teen Boy Shot and Killed by Cop for Flashing Headlights and Flexing Rights

originally posted by: mymymy
a reply to: Answer

And why don't you admit you don't know any "facts"?

Because that would be a lie.

a reply to: Answer

Then why won't you answer my questions?

How do you know all of this for a FACT?

originally posted by: mymymy
a reply to: Answer

Then why won't you answer my questions?

How do you know all of this for a FACT?

To answer your questions would require an explanation of police training, defensive shooting dynamics/psychology, and physical reactions to bullet impacts. I just don't have the patience to do all of that only for you to continue with your nonsensical statements about what is/is not excessive in a scenario the likes of which you know nothing about.

At the end of the day, the officer could have fired a single shot and had the same outcome... a dead 17 year old that you believe was murdered by an out-of-control cop. You want to focus on the number of shots because it somehow makes everything seem more outrageous in your head but it's ultimately irrelevant.

a reply to: Answer

So in other words, you have a theory, not a FACT?

Because I don't care about training or any of that. I am only interested in THIS particular case and how you know all these FACTS about it. So quit side stepping the issue and tell me how you know for a FACT this particular incident occurred or just admit you're doing like the rest of us and making assumptions. Explain to me how you KNOW the kid kept coming after all those shots until finally the last one stopped him for good. Tell me how you KNOW the officer's life was in danger the entire time.

The only thing that initially got me interested here is the fact that no one was surprised the kid was killed and I felt the number of shots was excessive. YOU are the one talking about having all these FACTS when you don't, you THINK you know what really happened like anybody else and we both could be completely wrong, or completely right. So forget everything and agree to disagree. I think it was excessive, you don't, it's cool, end of story.

It's Friday night, might as well have a few drinks and just be thankful neither of us were in this situation

a reply to: Answer

I disagree with your assessment that the number of shots is irrelevant.

Every day in courtrooms across the country the number of shots, the number of stab wounds, the number of blunt impacts, etc, are used to describe not only the intent of the perpetrator but the uncontrolled anger and/or passion that led to such barbaric acts. A calm cool head would not fire seven times in such a short timeframe. That is an act of outrageous anger. Look at the difference between a person who shoots someone one time and a person who unloads a full clip into someone who may have died after the first shot hit. That isn't self defense. That is one sick bastard. The coroner will be able to tell if any one of the shots could have been fatal. If it is discovered that five of the seven shots were each a fatal blow, then the officer has some explaining to do.

The number of shots fired is very relevant and will probably be one of the most convincing pieces of information used to determine the mental state of the officer at the time of the incident.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

What if the first shot was fatal? Should he have just let the kid suffer?

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
a reply to: Answer

I disagree with your assessment that the number of shots is irrelevant.

Every day in courtrooms across the country the number of shots, the number of stab wounds, the number of blunt impacts, etc, are used to describe not only the intent of the perpetrator but the uncontrolled anger and/or passion that led to such barbaric acts. A calm cool head would not fire seven times in such a short timeframe. That is an act of outrageous anger. Look at the difference between a person who shoots someone one time and a person who unloads a full clip into someone who may have died after the first shot hit. That isn't self defense. That is one sick bastard. The coroner will be able to tell if any one of the shots could have been fatal. If it is discovered that five of the seven shots were each a fatal blow, then the officer has some explaining to do.

The number of shots fired is very relevant and will probably be one of the most convincing pieces of information used to determine the mental state of the officer at the time of the incident.

You're completely incorrect but you are entitled to your opinion.

originally posted by: mymymy
a reply to: Answer

So in other words, you have a theory, not a FACT?

Because I don't care about training or any of that. I am only interested in THIS particular case and how you know all these FACTS about it. So quit side stepping the issue and tell me how you know for a FACT this particular incident occurred or just admit you're doing like the rest of us and making assumptions. Explain to me how you KNOW the kid kept coming after all those shots until finally the last one stopped him for good. Tell me how you KNOW the officer's life was in danger the entire time.

The only thing that initially got me interested here is the fact that no one was surprised the kid was killed and I felt the number of shots was excessive. YOU are the one talking about having all these FACTS when you don't, you THINK you know what really happened like anybody else and we both could be completely wrong, or completely right. So forget everything and agree to disagree. I think it was excessive, you don't, it's cool, end of story.

It's Friday night, might as well have a few drinks and just be thankful neither of us were in this situation

I never claimed to know ALL the facts. You put words in my mouth on that one.

Similar to "SHOW me your badge number" vs "GIVE me your badge number." Funny how that works.

originally posted by: Bone75
a reply to: Vroomfondel

What if the first shot was fatal? Should he have just let the kid suffer?

What? Please tell me that was sarcasm???

originally posted by: alienjuggalo
originally posted by: Bone75
a reply to: Vroomfondel

Bone75 : What if the first shot was fatal? Should he have just let the kid suffer?

alienjuggalo : What? Please tell me that was sarcasm???

That could have only been a typo, he must have meant "wasn't fatal", otherwise his next sentence doesn't fit. Nor makes sence.

And that next one should really shill your spine again....
If he meant that, then he probably (used to) work in an abattoir. Killing lives, senseless all the time.
If he didn't, it sure as hell made me feel "not amused" ...!

This kind of expression of non-empathic feelings about fellow humans or animals is what makes the normal members sick to the bone. What change in the education system, and when, has caused these kind of blunt reactions in the US populace? Some call them commoners. Since they seem to think all what's happening around them is common.

originally posted by: seeker1963
a reply to: alienjuggalo

Hate on the cops all you want, but when they pull you over? Don't be an idiot.

Can you explain why he was being an idiot please. I'm from the UK and can't see him doing anything wrong, he's apologetic and respectful despite the cop being on a power trip.

Over here we're allowed to ask police questions, expect answers and as long as people are civil then police will leave you alone - you certainly wouldn't be hauled out the car, told to lie on the ground, tased or shot - especially not for trying to help an officer.

I have to make a few comments at this point in the discussion of such a sad event.

Member "Answer" maintains the voice of reason during all these pages, which is good for the discussion. And many times he is right and trying to correct some too far left-field observations and implications.

He should also consider the next thoughts.

The officer had my/all others initial sympathy, after I listened to the first part of the audio, accompanying his shoulder cam video.
He handled the situation in a calm and restrained manner, until his second call for backup to his precinct, and their answers (non audible, garbled or too soft).
Perhaps those answers triggered the sudden need in his mind to end the show-down situation?
Or, a sudden move of the boy inside his car made him decide to change to arrest mode? Possible weapon in the car, he could have thought?

However, the boy definitely did not give the impression of some kind of build-up of aggression, more the other way round. He apologized already about his intention to warn the officer for his seemingly too high dim lights, which he had thought to be his car's bright lights.
Now also take in account that the officer's back-up arrived about 60 seconds later. Which was probably told to him by his radio dispatchers in their last garbled answer on his second call for assistance.

Suddenly the officer switched from reasonable to rage, after that second answer from his radio.
I would REALLY like to hear a transcript from that answer.
Because that's the moment that everybody in this thread lost empathy and sympathy for the officer.


Because a logical operating LEO would have waited for the backup, and asked the boy to remove his keys from the ignition and lay them on his dashboard. And told him that backup was on its way and arriving shortly. And calmed the boy down by explaining that he only risked a minor ticket, eventually.

I still wonder why the officer asked for backup in the first place, with "priority" added to that request. What was so life threatening in his eyes, for him, in this situation? The behavior of the boy certainly not.
Or did he anticipate to be able to make a drug possession arrest, and wanted to get all the fame himself alone? Yes, I know, pure assumption...however, the boy clearly acted still slightly doped. I know, have seen too many of them all my life.

It was crystal clear for a neutral observer of the shoulder cam's video, that the boy was trying to wriggle himself out from under an upcoming traffic ticket for flashing his headlights and having his papers left at home, no more than that.
He reacted all the time VERY polite, even when the officer threatened/assaulted him with a Taser, to get him handcuffed.


Now also take in account the fact(?) that the coroner found traces of marijuana in the boys blood, which levels indicated that he had used that about 3 to 4 hours earlier. So it seems to me that the boy didn't have to be afraid to be arrested for possession of marijuana. (They did not find a bud, nor cigarette with traces in it, or they would have added that to their victim-inventory)
A smoking doper is not a threat, is the outcome of myriads of research papers. Marijuana is a downer, you become calm and sometimes slurring speaking from it. Seasoned smokers do not show any affect to onlookers, they operate totally normal in social exchanges.

In LEO circles however, there is a totally different picture hovering around about pot smokers. Nuff said.

Alright, I am not reading through twenty-six pages to see if this has been posted or not, but I didn't see it in the first several, so here goes.

1. This teen was tested, and was apparently positive for THC, at the time of the incident, as in, within the previous three to four hours or sooner.

2. The cop was seriously injured, according to this article - link - and check the pic, please:


Obviously, he was attacked. You can see, in the slowed down video here (about 34 of thee way down) - link 2 - that the teen got up and came straight at the officer. He wasn't cuffed, by all appearances, and was very mobile. His twitter page says he's into mixed martial arts -


So, defenseless teen,, shot by out of control cop? Doesn't look that way. Looks more like a teen under the influence came at a cop and got shot for it. Whether the cop was right or wrong on the badge issue doesn't change that. Whether the teen was yelling or not before attacking doesn't change that. We can see him get up and come at the cop in the slowed video. We can see the damage he did. They looked bad enough that it was thought he might have a fractured jaw, or orbital bone, but that wasn't the case, fortunately for him.

I am sorry this family lost their son, but when someone attacks a cop, there is reason for the cop to defend himself, just like anyone else would, if armed and able.

A reply to: bastion

EXACTLY !
It should be obligatory for US cops to view at least 10 UK videos of traffic stops by UK cops.
They will not believe their eyes and ears.

I have never engaged more politely conversation governing police officers anywhere else. However, the rest of Europe's old countries are also high on my list of polite officers. As long as you are keeping up appearances too, no problems for you.

From LadyGreenEyes her link :

Lloyd's office received the Michigan State Police investigation on May 27, he said on Tuesday, and spent about three weeks reviewing 29 law enforcement reports, hours of video and audio, an autopsy report, a toxicology report, Frost's medical and personnel file and dispatch records, among other pieces of evidence.

Lloyd said Wednesday he doesn't anticipate releasing any additional information or evidence without a Freedom of Information Act request.

View Comments (298), meaning it stirrs up many minds.
The Lanting State Journal has filed already for those FOIA requests.
It's this kind of holding back evidence to MANY, by ONE, that enrages so many readers.

The cop definitely was NOT seriously injured, as you assumed.
I have been boxing in my younger years. That kind of dried up blood streams are already appearing when you got hit on your eyebrows.
Hitting yourself with the nozzle piece of your weapon over your eyebrow does that too. Frost had no bone fractures, X-Rays showed.
There are more than one explanations for his bloody face. The boys blood comes to mind.
From 7 gunshot wounds.

There are still too many options for a totally different scenario than officer Frost explained, after the Taser shot got off.
We need more input.
Which we will get from that FOIA request.

Page 25 : Deven Guilford shooting shoulder cam at 05.37 seven shots.JPG
At 05:37 the officer shoots Deven Guilford 3 times while the 17 year old is screaming of the top of his lungs, then he pumps 2 other rounds of 2 bullets each in the boy.
files.abovetopsecret.com...


I hereby retract my interpretation of this last visible freeze-frame of Frost's right shoulder cam, I posted on page 25.

It looks much more like the boy is laying on his back in the snow, with a lot of blood to the left of his head. And Frost is towering over him. With his cam on his right shoulder....
We also see the boy's T-shirt's right arm's short sleeve to the right of his head, all in the right part of this LAST still frame.
The circular light patterns can only be made by the fast moving right hand of Frost, who we know from the first one of my still frames in that page 25 post, had a flash light attached.
I suppose he now has his revolver in that right hand, which he is frantically moving up and down when shooting, as registered by his shoulder cam.
He lost his Taser, or threw it away in anger after he hit himself with it (as I explained at page 25), and got so enraged about it, that he executed the boy after that crucial pain from his own Taser shot.
Btw, this is EXACTLY the moment of the first gunshot heard on both videos, from the body cam and the boy's hand-phone cam.

That's some other kind of scenario, ain't it.? ANYTHING is possible, only one interpretation will hold up to scrutiny, after we see all the FOIA freed files !

That's not a serious injury, the guy isn't even bruised. He's just caught a nick on his head and bled a bit, if he'd been hit there'd be bruising and swelling. Speaking from a lot of experience as I have bad epilepsy and regularly hit my head and get far worse looking injuries just falling to the ground.

originally posted by: LaBTop
A reply to: bastion

I have never engaged more politely conversation governing police officers anywhere else. However, the rest of Europe's old countries are also high on my list of polite officers. As long as you are keeping up appearances too, no problems for you.

Truth, as long as people don't swear or go into a rage at an officer over here 99.9% of the time they'll politely recommend you do something and appologise for interrupting. I've been stopped and wrongly accused of throwing a bottle at a bouncer, 10 to 12 police walked up to myself and a mate and asked us if we knew why we had been stopped, we responded we had no idea we'd been stopped, the officer explained a bouncer had told him we were throwing glass bottles, we got even more confused and told him to check cctv as we hadn't done a thing, he checked, confirmed the bouncer was lying and couldn't appologise enough for having interrupted our night, we hoped they'd all have a safe night and they wished us well back and said we were probably going to be the nicest people they'd meet that night.

The best I've seen is in Amsterdam when two guys were trying to surf in a canal
Polite: 'Hey guys you shouldn't do that, it's dangerous'
Guys: 'Yeah, we know'
Polite: 'Ok, have a nice day guys'
Guys: 'you too officer'

No guns, no bull#, no power trips, just basic manners and mutual respect and if someone does go into a rage the police just stand there until the person realises they're being an idiot, calms down a bit and complies with them. They don't escalate a situation or goad you into doing something you wouldn't otherwise through desperately trying to boost their egos.

EDIT: Just seen the above post - I completely agree with your interpretation of events, something has clipped him on the bridge of his nose - he's definitely not been punched, let alone by someone trained. I've sustained far worse falling to the ground mid seizure so agree the officer tazed himself and the injury is from him falling or flailing mid taze..

Listen carefully to the audio in the last 15 seconds.

Does that sound to you as someones face, which is ONLY 5 to 10 cm away from his STILL registering shoulder cam, is punched so hard that the officer is later stating that he felled blood in his mouth and was afraid of losing consciousness.?

To me it sounds nothing else than a short chase after a fleeing 17 year old small boy, who had no chance in hell to avoid being executed Hollywood style.

It doesn't sound like Deven punching Frost's face. It sounds like Deven Guilford running for his life and then got shot 3 times, him screaming his lungs out, then 2 more double rounds, and then the cam record is cut. By the investigating DA, or Frost, or ...?

America land of the .... 130 IB harmless 17 year old kid getting killed for flashing his headlights at an egotistical cop, who refused to offer his police ID number and admitted he had been flashed before by several other drivers because his lights were so bright.

Do you know how much outrage this would cause in UK and Europe? It would be complete utter outrage.

Yet some posters in this thread have passed it off as something normal. "The kid shouldn't have been a punk"... The kid is just a kid, not a fully grown adult.

The social conditioning in the US has got you to accept overly aggressive narcissistic cops killing harmless teenagers. That is the reality.

a reply to: LaBTop

To my untrained ear I hear four footsteps in quick succession which sounds identical to someone running on tarmac with potentially one step onto crunchy snow. tl;dr - the victim is running away.

I hear nothing that even resembles a punch or any kind of contact other than wind/fabric brushing against the mic.

If the officer was telling the truth and those sounds were the punches that almost knocked him unconscious, he's had a miraculous recovery where he's been able to take aim, shoot, deal with gun error, reload take aim and start shooting all in the space of 2 seconds. Never touched a gun in my life but that sounds pretty impossible to me.

Whenever I've had a crack to the head and everything's turned dark and I've almost blacked out, it's taken at least 15 seconds for me to work out what year it is, let alone move or do such a complex task as the officer has.