Russia says will retaliate if U.S. weapons stationed on its borders

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

And yet Russia recognized Ukraine as a sovereign nation. The UN recognizes Ukraine as a sovereign nation.

The same can't be said for Russians invasion of Crimea.

Putin is destroying Russia and must be stopped.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: dragonridr
The other major diffrence is the US doesn't have to build up forces they have them meaning they can hit hard from the start. Russia 20th non nuclear option could last maybe 4 months.

Russia is the biggest country on Planet Earth by a mile my friend. It can last longer than four months. It has resources that are the envy of every nation on this planet. Russia will last the course just like USA will (assuming they have the stomach for it) and will take heavy casualties where EU and USA bitch at home when they lose a few thousand and the people won't back more foreign adventures. I'm no pro Russia fan boy, not at all. I just see the way they have been treated since 1991 and dismembered and pushed around and surrounded by the West and sort of feel sorry for the. I'm a Brit and we support the underdog. Maybe Russia has its faults but it also has its pride that was destroyed in the 90's and now is back on its feet again and wants some influence in what was and is still its back yard. Good on them

What does any of the is have to do with Russian military strength givin them 4 months is being generous given they are outnumbered in every way by NATO. As far as resources yeah lots of countries have them again has nothing to do with the military unless you count Putin's use if the military to take away Ukraines. AND finally if this goes down like France thinks it will ,casualties will be huge but if you think countries would back down because if it that's silly. Never happened in the history if the world. No Government STOPS A War BECAUSE IT'S NOT Popular AFTER ALL NO War IS popular.

a reply to: Xcathdra

can't keep my mouth shut on that.

nearly all the problems in the ukraine atm stem from the fact there has technically never been a border between the ukraine and russia.

and the eu/us are forcing them to build one to match the line they drew on a piece of paper years ago that no one has ever paid any attention to.

originally posted by: devilmoon
a reply to: Xcathdra

can't keep my mouth shut on that.

nearly all the problems in the ukraine atm stem from the fact there has technically never been a border between the ukraine and russia.

and the eu/us are forcing them to build one to match the line they drew on a piece of paper years ago that no one has ever paid any attention to.

Question so how did the Russian and Ukrainian border agents get to work if they didn't know where the border is??

a reply to: dragonridr

there are several thousand roads that criss cross the ukraine russian border on the map between the towns and villages there.

and like 6 checkpoints on the main ones to check heavy goods vehicles. simply never has been anything you would call a border.

what they want is a Berlin Wall style enclosure. only this time the population there all want to be on the russian side. good luck propogandising that.

G7 went and forced the issue and isolated itself from a good 80% of the world in the process.

and next time you want to claim how much the sanctions are "hurting" russia. have a little look how much of the world's goods are "made in china". I'm sure they are crying into the vodkas every night that they can't buy g7 branded Chinese goods legitimately.

the only loosers from the sanctions seem to have been the Polish apple farmers who lost most of their market when the sanctions came into force. and they are very very unhappy.

a reply to: devilmoon

nearly all the problems in the ukraine atm stem from the fact there has technically never been a border between the ukraine and russia.

Except in 1991 Russia acknowledges the border between them and Ukraine.

The Russian-Ukrainian border is the international state border between Russia and Ukraine, which formally has been in existence since Ukraine's independence from the Soviet Union, on August 24, 1991. Over land the border outlines five oblasts (regions) of Ukraine and five oblasts of the Russian Federation.

The Russia–Ukraine border has the biggest number of border checkpoints in Ukraine.

en.wikipedia.org...

Well then Ukraine shouldn't be paying border guards to protect something you say isn't there...or are they paying them because it is there?

I know which one I am going with.

originally posted by: devilmoon
a reply to: dragonridr

there are several thousand roads that criss cross the ukraine russian border on the map between the towns and villages there.

and like 6 checkpoints on the main ones to check heavy goods vehicles. simply never has been anything you would call a border.

what they want is a Berlin Wall style enclosure. only this time the population there all want to be on the russian side. good luck propogandising that.

G7 went and forced the issue and isolated itself from a good 80% of the world in the process.

and next time you want to claim how much the sanctions are "hurting" russia. have a little look how much of the world's goods are "made in china". I'm sure they are crying into the vodkas every night that they can't buy g7 branded Chinese goods legitimately.

the only loosers from the sanctions seem to have been the Polish apple farmers who lost most of their market when the sanctions came into force. and they are very very unhappy.

Uh have missed what has happened to Russian economy? The Russian Government had to order a freeze on food prices because they are skyrocketing. The Russian also had to stop the Russian people from trading Rubles for US Dollars because it was doing even more damage to a already wrecked currency. Russia's credit rating is at junk status. And this is from the very lightest of sanctions. The Russians themselves are giving rousing speeches on how to survive these hard times. And you some how think everything in Russia is great. If only they agreed with you.

And you are correct most likely Russia will build some sort of border fortification to seal off the new puppet state the will try and create in the east of Ukraine. As they have done in Moldova, Georgia and Azerbaijan. That is if they can some how hold on. Not much of secret that the "rebel" forces are Russians. And with the locals not joining and Russia facing a manpower shortage the time is coming where Russia is going to have either pull out or openly admit they are involved so they extend all those 1 year conscripts instead of using up the few professional soldiers they have.

What makes things worse for Russia is lack international support. Their was a time when Russia would have annexed Crimea and a decent amount of nations would have recognized it. When only 6 states recognize it, you have a problem. When Russia can not get China or Iran to recognize its actions in Crimea it shows just how bad the Russians have it.

The worst part of it is, all this was caused by Russia. Russia has its own Russian/NATO Council, was a part of NATOs PFP, was let in to the G8 despite it not meeting the same economic standard. Western investment was pouring into Russia feeding its economic growth and now because Putin has some fantasy about reforming the USSR he has done more harm to Russia than any outside enemy could.

a reply to: devilmoon

and like 6 checkpoints on the main ones to check heavy goods vehicles. simply never has been anything you would call a border.

Not even close...

A total of 39 checkpoints will still operate on the border with Russia, the State Border Service said. Three are located in Chernihiv Oblast, 14 in Sumy Oblast, 15 in Kharkiv Oblast, six in Luhansk Oblast and one in Kyiv Oblast.

www.kyivpost.com...

a reply to: MrSpad

not sure what you mean by lack of international support.
is anyone outside of the technically insolvent g7 economies agreeing to go along with anything those banksters propose willingly??

originally posted by: devilmoon
a reply to: dragonridr

there are several thousand roads that criss cross the ukraine russian border on the map between the towns and villages there.

and like 6 checkpoints on the main ones to check heavy goods vehicles. simply never has been anything you would call a border.

what they want is a Berlin Wall style enclosure. only this time the population there all want to be on the russian side. good luck propogandising that.

G7 went and forced the issue and isolated itself from a good 80% of the world in the process.

and next time you want to claim how much the sanctions are "hurting" russia. have a little look how much of the world's goods are "made in china". I'm sure they are crying into the vodkas every night that they can't buy g7 branded Chinese goods legitimately.

the only loosers from the sanctions seem to have been the Polish apple farmers who lost most of their market when the sanctions came into force. and they are very very unhappy.

You really don't know how the world works do you?? For example there are thousands of places to cross between the US and Canada but I assure you both sides recognize there is a border. In Europe it's even worse I can hop on a train and visit several countries in a day without one being stopped. Just because an area is patrolled doesn't mean it's not part of a country. You must have never traveled have you?? Now what's the diffrence between Russia and these other countries well Canada for example isn't sneaking military equipment into the US. Russia is sending equipment and manpower into another country all the while trying to claim they are trying to negotiate a peaceful resolution.Talk about the fox guarding thr hen house.

Russia has no respect for its neighbors and thats why it's in this mess. Russia doesn't negotiate they invade. If this was the first time might have a leg to stand on problem is its not. All Russia decided is what they want their sphere of influence to be and has used force to maintain it. This force consists of economic and military pressure this could have easily been maintained if they simply chose negotiations like most countries. Countries do not invade their neighbors because they don't like something. Trust me if that was the case Mexico would have been invaded years ago you work with their government.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
It doesn't matter what the west or NATO thinks with regards to crimea. None of those entities have any business or authority to sign any agreement with Russia on that topic. Crimea is a part of Ukraine and will remain so, even under Russian occupation, until Ukraine decides otherwise.

This is not about fighting for freedom or democracy in the former Baltic states. Its about the balance of power and nuclear arms which has been destabilized by greedy US initiatives.

Historically speaking though, Crimea has never been truly or legally independent, although there are many who simply see it as politically expedient to "believe" that Crimea is autonomous. As peninsula, that area was host to many invading forces going back at least five centuries until around 1802. From the early 1800s until 2014, Crimea was within the autonomy of the USSR or the autonomy of Ukraine (a communist Russian state until 1991), when Russia signed an accession treaty. Crimea has never been autonomous, but as you mentioned, considered an extension of the Ukrainian territory and government. Nevertheless, Crimea (via Sevastopol) has always been Federal Subject within the Crimean Federal District of Russia even after the Ukrainian breakaway during the capitalist period.

And it does matter what the west thinks about Crimea, because a pro-American government had been artificially installed in that region through Ukraine. That was the obvious harbinger in the oblique interpretation of the nuclear arms treaties regarding first strike capability with respect to anti-ballistic missile systems on Russia's border.

It's very obvious that the west is willing to sacrifice an entire world economy by destabilizing eastern Europe through blatant measures to compromise Russia's security and the delicate balance of nuclear arms equality.

If you focus on all of the bluster and the tit-for-tat regarding regime changes by Russia or the US, you miss the underlying motives that has created all of this tension.

Bottom line; the US and its allies will either come to terms with their irrational security initiatives or all of Europe will suffer the economic trauma of military escalation.

a reply to: Gianfar

And it does matter what the west thinks about Crimea, because a pro-American government had been artificially installed in that region through Ukraine.

Artificially installed by the US you say?

SO I guess the US bribed all those who voted for the candidate the US didn't back, because the one they backed didn't win so that means the US didn't install a government in Ukraine...the Ukrainian people did.

And do you not see why they would be a pro west government...they already know what Russia has to offer and they don't want it.

If you focus on all of the bluster and the tit-for-tat regarding regime changes by Russia or the US, you miss the underlying motives that has created all of this tension.

Yep, good old Vlad want to rejoin the old family that made up the federation.

Bottom line; the US and its allies will either come to terms with their irrational security initiatives or all of Europe will suffer the economic trauma of military escalation.

Those irrational security initiatives are what have kept WW3 from happening. Remember the US let Europe fend for themselves and see what happened. Twice.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Poroshenko is a billionaire oligarch of the elite who is heavily vested in media, and he's received public support from Pres. Obama and Washington. Soon, wall street and the US tax payer will be investing heavily in corrupt Ukrainian governance, so don't expect to see any real form of self determination. BTW you don't have a clue what security initiatives are about or how they play into the balance of nuclear arms effecting this situation.

a reply to: dragonridr

au contrare. it appears to be you that's never seen a border other than the one between Canada and the us.

the russia ukraine border was more like say a northern ireland southern ireland border.

then at the start of 2014 the US wanted them to spend hundreds of millions of us dollars to make it like the US - Mexico border.

so the russians decided to move the border (with pretty much full support from anyone who matters) to include all the heavy industry it is invested in, keeping it from the clutches of the g7 banksters.

they won.

get over it and move on.

a reply to: devilmoon

It's a bit odd this line of thinking...

Look all over and you see the US under fire over the years for "violating the sovereignty" of "insert nation here", how illegal the Wars in Iraq and Afghan are etc etc...

But Russia "decided to move the border" unilaterally, in direct contravention of international law and without the consent of the other nation in question, yet this is fine and we should just "accept it"?

a reply to: stumason

the russians.

they've not really got full political support yet. Even from putin.

which despite various depictions of him single handedly conquering eastern ukraine has done nothing more about the situation than sign a few pieces of paper and have a few chats.

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: devilmoon

It's a bit odd this line of thinking...

Look all over and you see the US under fire over the years for "violating the sovereignty" of "insert nation here", how illegal the Wars in Iraq and Afghan are etc etc...

But Russia "decided to move the border" unilaterally, in direct contravention of international law and without the consent of the other nation in question, yet this is fine and we should just "accept it"?

Perhaps your questioning of this hypocrisy is in reverse order. Many of us recognize that Russia and China have decided to forgo diplomatic and political moves over outright aggression in lieu of the US land grabs in oil bearing territory. Let's not forget that prior to the invasions into Afghanistan and Iraq, the Russians and Chinese had joint projects and contracts in both countries related to the Eastern petroleum consortium. Regionally strategic pipelines and other petroleum developments that have since been taken by western oil conglomerates.

Its one of the greatest examples of greed and economic proliferation in history and it was done with extreme military force. Perhaps you've not familiarized yourself with the fact that two nations have been destroyed by unprovoked western aggression. Millions of people are homeless, jobless, dead, with an infrastructure that would take a wealthy western country 60 years to rebuild, as it did for Germany.

When you look at the pure economics of petroleum control and the willingness of the west to destroy for it, how can you not understand the anxiety this has caused in the Sino-Russian petroleum axis?

False leaderships and concurrent US policy is completely at blame for what is happening in the world today. Its completely evil and against every standard we hold true in a democratic, transparent society. And its already coming back to bite us in the ass.

Anyone who "understands" and believes in democracy should be up in arms to cleanse America and the UK of these morally poisoned, greedy, paranoid bastards who are destroying us with total incompetence. Anyone in the free world who doesn't understand this clearly is just another right wing clown with a flag painted on his face.


"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein

a reply to: Gianfar

I don't really take sides. just cold hard cash

politicos and banksters are all the same no matter what country they originate from.

and it's not so much that the g7 are more greedy. and more that they have been so incompetent for so long they are now bankrupt and scrabbling for scraps of resources wherever they can get them while no one is willing to support then. at home or abroad.

a reply to: Gianfar

How come, then, that these "land grabs" ended up with the US withdrawing and having little influence in Iraq?

How come, then, that many of the Oil contracts dished out post invasion actually went to non US Oil firms? Only two contracts out of around 23 went to US firms, while 3 are Chinese firms and 2 are Russian firms? 4 contracts have been given to a Malaysian firm.

As for Afghanistan, China is their biggest investor after the invasion. They are opening up huge mines and other industrial projects across the country.

None of what you said makes any sense when you look at the facts on the ground.

a reply to: stumason

because Russia and China spent their money on the conflict smarter.

most of what you talk of is now controlled entirely by gazprom neft et al..

which is what they went in to stop in the first place (saddams lot signed huge deals with them. saddams lot now runs isis or whatever they are calling themselves these days, there's a great write up of the plans for isis from one of the journals of saddams generals iirc).