NO Unproved Blood Sacrifices!

a reply to: windword

Have I ever said that you have to believe or else?

Have you ever thought that I said that to you?

I asked, what does it matter to you because you don't have to believe that He was Messiah or born of a virgin. A lot of people in those days also didn't.

Excuse me for a moment, can you point to any thread of mine that I said anything remotely that you have to believe that about Jesus or else hell? Sure, I say things to Muslims but not one time, never ever ever have I said they were going to hell.

And neither have I ever said that to you. Neither have I said it to anyone identifying themselves as Pagan, Wiccan, Satanist or any other religion.

Please point the post to me where I said that.

As far as derailing the thread, you must realize that when you make comments such as "His existence needs to be proven first" that you were the one who derailed it? I don't care if you don't agree that Jesus existed or not, the point is this, don't make the statement unless you are ready to defend it with credible sources, and not ones with an agenda to disprove it, and yet EVERY source I linked to was NOT Christian, therefore no agenda. I posted from secular sources.

Now you tell us, if Jesus was non-existent, then HOW does He have a message that you can even point to in order to tell me I missed the message? You mean that my defense of the PROVEN historicity is lost because somehow you like the message, you like the Jesus that gave the message, that you like to point out to us that we missed the message, and then you say the Messenger doesn't exist?

If Jesus doesn't exist then this line has no meaning...

You miss the essence of the message that the Bible and the biblical Jesus was trying to tell.

You miss the essence of logic...if Jesus did not exist and then our faith is based upon Greek, Roman and Egyptian Paganism..then the message of Love Thy Neighbor DOES NOT EXIST and I am no longer obligated to treat you any different than they did people then.

If the Biblical morality does not exist...then there is not one single one of Christians obligated to be nice, graceful, loving and forgiving, and then we can only act like your side. There is no more societal morality or obligation to fall back onto, because you have decided to remove it (intellectually in your own mind) there YOU have removed from us the obligation of love thy neighbor as thyself. And you can't even invoke any other god or deity, because EVERYWHERE that moral precept is taught, it has ALWAYS been from a religion.

If this comment seems harsh, remember, you removed Jesus from the equation, demanding that we do as well, therefore we can only act like you. Is that something you want?

The message was real enough to you, therefore the real man lived. No messenger, no message, that's logic.

You can't tell us one hand that He never existed and then tell us on the other hand what His message was. And at no time have I ever said to you that unless you believe you are going to hell. I want you to show me.

Does it seem reasonable now that if my comment seems harsh, that you have permitted me to remove Jesus from myself in order to respond like you? Which is more preferable?

Jesus died for YOU, Jesus loves YOU. And whatever your belief or lack of belief is, Jesus STILL loves YOU. And that DOES NOT mean that Jesus wants you to go to hell for not believing in Him.

You deny the sacrifice for you, why? What has Jesus ever done to you?

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

In all that, you forgot the rabbis who have the actual documented evidence.

What are you going on about?

Awen parroted the same old tired lie that "no serious scholar has EVER tried to claim that Jesus never existed." That's a blatant lie.

If you Christians can't even acknowledge that simple truth, that there are serious scholars that doubt the historicity of Jesus Christ, how are we supposed to have any kind of intelligent and honest conversation about the religion and its demands on its adherants?

Hmmm, so you deny the historicity of every event prior to Jesus and immediately after?

Where does the word Christian come from?

Christians were in the First Century in Rome, their name comes from.........?

No, effectively every human being that hasnt been recorded on film, without exception is a myth

Plato never existed, there is just some writing about him and by someone who pretended to be him.

Alexander was a book of fairytales written to scare foreign invaders from Macedonian shores

Gengis khan was another myth to force the price of Chinese made products higher if they had been taken down the spice roads

Every human being who wasnt recorded on film can have their existence questioned

Its not a matter of every event prior to Christ, its every event and individual prior to film.

Some people just cant be reasoned with

a reply to: WarminIndy

Have I ever said that you have to believe or else?

Have you ever thought that I said that to you?

Once again, you're making this about you. It isn't!

As far as derailing the thread, you must realize that when you make comments such as "His existence needs to be proven first" that you were the one who derailed it?

I never said that. Go back and re-read my reply to Awen. The historicity of Jesus of Nazareth has NOT been proven, however, I never demanded from you, or anyone else, that it should be. It is, in fact, unproven, as is/was any sacrifice he supposedly made.

Now you tell us, if Jesus was non-existent, then HOW does He have a message that you can even point to in order to tell me I missed the message?

I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse or if you're just being intellectually dishonest.

if Jesus did not exist and then our faith is based upon Greek, Roman and Egyptian Paganism..then the message of Love Thy Neighbor DOES NOT EXIST and I am no longer obligated to treat you any different than they did people then.

That's too bad for you, but not at all surprising to find out that you think that Jesus invented compassion, common sense and altruism.

If the Biblical morality does not exist...then there is not one single one of Christians obligated to be nice, graceful, loving and forgiving, and then we can only act like your side. There is no more societal morality or obligation to fall back onto, because you have decided to remove it (intellectually in your own mind) there YOU have removed from us the obligation of love thy neighbor as thyself. And you can't even invoke any other god or deity, because EVERYWHERE that moral precept is taught, it has ALWAYS been from a religion.

Right. Because only Christians have cornered the market on being nice, having grace, love and forgiveness. Jesus invented those things too, don't ya know! Remove Jesus from the equation and the whole world falls apart and goes to Hell in a handbag!

If this comment seems harsh, remember, you removed Jesus from the equation, demanding that we do as well, therefore we can only act like you. Is that something you want?

There you go again, grandstanding, playing the martyr and making this all about you!

a reply to: WarminIndy

Might I remind you exactly what religions the Romans followed at the time...the death cult of the Emperor was first, then every idol was sacrificed to. Venus, death cult, Nike, death cult, Dionysius, death cult, Mars, death cult....EVERY cult that had an idol, the Christians were forced to sacrifice to or be killed.

A pinch of incense to show allegiance to the Emperor, is that too much to ask?

The Christians weren't forced to join any cults. Some of the cults mentioned were mystery cults not open to anyone but a select few. You're just trying to make Romans seem Barbaric!

Sacrifices in Ancient Rome

Sacrifices to the gods were a fundamental votive practice. These could be as small and relatively insignificant as bread crumbs thrown into the hearth at home in honour of Vesta, through to say, a chicken to Jupiter or indeed several animals such as cows and so on. Clearly one would sacrifice as high a price as was required for the particular favour being asked of the god in question.
. . .
Public sacrificial ceremonies were state affairs which would generally take place in the Forum according to strict liturgy and hymns called "carmina". The value of the sacrifice would be in proportion to the State's needs. We can imagine whole herds of cattle being religiously gored at the sacrificial altar. Various cuts of the meat would be reserved for the gods whilst the rest would be eaten in one huge religious feast.

About idols: Why such prejudice against visible gods and goddesses? The Greek word THEOS comes from an ancient root verb meaning "to see". Even the word Theory comes from that.

There is a theory that the Sun coming up is merely the illusion caused by the "seer" being on a rotating Earth. Sophisticated people know that life would be quite a hardship without the Sun. But no special sacrifice is needed to cause the "Sun to rise", but maybe the Sun would appreciate a thank you now and then. The Father Sky doesn't need much, it sure would "suck" if He went away though.

Think of Carnea, goddess of door knobs, she gives good service to people. Are you going to deny a ritual anointing of oil now and then? WD40 will suffice, just a quick squirt. Or the ritual wiping of the fingerprints? Or Cardea, goddess of door hinges? If she gets to squeaking, are you going to ignore her just because she's an idol?

Oh! Where has piety gone?

a reply to: pthena

Sorry, I was having internet problems today.

Should I do that wearing Nikes?

I don't have a problem with people who worship their doorknobs or hinges, or even cars for that matter.

If that's what you want to do, then by all means.

The problem is that historically, yes, the Romans were barbaric toward their own country fellows who did not burn incense to the Emperor. Some people might not have cared, but some people had no problem turning over Christians to the authorities for the superstitio....(Latin word).

I think also that people forget that people are people, it doesn't matter what religion. But there are people on ATS who feel as though Christianity must be disproven at all costs, so we have to ask why. And when they give their why, it usually is because of their view, which is not so different than the Romans, that we are incestuous cannibalistic barbarians.

Historically, yes, Christians were forced on pain of death to join the various cults. When I say cult, I use it in the broad sense, Rome did not have one single religion. But cheer up, the cults of Bacchus and Magna Mater were also made illegal.

It appears that Nero fiddled in vain, well, if he fiddled at all.

When in Rome...all roads lead to Rome...right? Rome wasn't built in a day either, neither was Christianity nor Judaism.

A pinch of incense for Yaweh, is that too much to ask for also?

a reply to: windword

Oh dear, a little disagreement and the same thing happens.

You have made your choice, does it matter if the rest of us made ours?

I've asked you several times, what does it matter to you if Jesus existed? Does it change anything for you?

No grandstanding, no being martyred, this has never been about me. You have stated your desire to not believe in anything Christian and yet tell me to listen to the message of Jesus.

So I ask you again, what does it matter to you?

a reply to: WarminIndy

Should I do that wearing Nikes?

Wait for the squeak to be silenced, then put the Nikes on for a victory lap.

Romans were barbaric toward their own country fellows who did not burn incense to the Emperor.

Back in those days, I was a barbarian rather than a Roman. Wait, no I wasn't born yet.

And when they give their why, it usually is because of their view, which is not so different than the Romans, that we are incestuous cannibalistic barbarians.

I always thought it was political. They don't want Judeo-Christians legislating sin/not sin rather than public order. Plus legislating public education to teach creationism in lieu of biology.

I grew up from birth in a sect which taught, "The day will come (mid 70s - mid 80s, by the timelines, somewhat late) when the 'false Christians' will take control of the country and persecute 'us the real Christians'." That sort of ingrained fear of the future is a bit difficult to get over.

A pinch of incense for Yaweh, is that too much to ask for also?

Leviticus 10:1-2 ESV
"Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it and laid incense on it and offered unauthorized fire before the Lord, which he had not commanded them. And fire came out from before the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord."

I don't have authorized fire, nor the proper incense recipe. Sorry.

a reply to: pthena

I am back, I had company for the past week and they just left today.

Yes, I can see how that ingrained fear would be tough to get over. I didn't grow up in a church like that so maybe that's why I have a different perspective.

a reply to: WarminIndy


I was beginning to worry. Thought your computer may have died or something.

After so many years of reading the Bible one way, it's just about impossible to read it any other way.

I'm kind of amazed how some people so easily say, "That's a metaphor, and that's not literal, and to understand it you have to conclude that it means the opposite of what it says."

a reply to: WarminIndy

No grandstanding, no being martyred, this has never been about me. You have stated your desire to not believe in anything Christian and yet tell me to listen to the message of Jesus.

So I ask you again, what does it matter to you?

No, it's not about you and it's not about me either.

It's insulting to my intelligence when someone casually dismisses an idea and its discussion by inserting unsubstantiated superstitious lore as historic fact. The facts are, the existence of the biblical character of Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus Christ are unsubstantiated, as is any sacrifice that he supposedly made.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

originally posted by: rossacus
a reply to: Lightworth
Christians have to make sacraficed everyday. By being christian they give up there rights as rationale thinking human beings and on a daily basis have to reevaluate their truths based on new discoveries. They sacrafice their inner integrity everytime a debate arises asking for proof or a disbelief in faith.

They make truly great sacrafices but don't get the recognition they deserve

Forgot to thank you for the daily religious bashing thread...didn't realise it was that time in the day already.

It seem you have done a very good job of bashing faith in your responce of is this another bashing thread?