Pearl Harbor: A Sneak Attack?

Here's an oldie but goodie.Pearl Harbor what did FDR know and when did he know it? We had several warnings in the months and weeks leading up to the attack but nothing was done to put the fleet on high alert or even get them out to sea.Various documents were lost or destroyed,also the US had broken the Japanese cypher machine so we have been reading their messages for months at that point.

a reply to: mike dangerously

You knew but prayed it wouldn't happen, like Hitler declaring war on america. Less profiteering if your involved in the war

a reply to: mike dangerously

Here's an oldie but goodie.Pearl Harbor what did FDR know and when did he know it? We had several warnings in the months and weeks leading up to the attack but nothing was done to put the fleet on high alert or even get them out to sea.

It was known that something was coming down the pike. But not where, or when. Several war warnings were sent out, the last the week before the attack itself. But, the main threat, or so it was thought, would be sabotage...which is why the planes were parked as they were. Though some small number were moved to adjoining airfields, not enough. The Fleet... The carriers were out to see with their escorts of cruisers and destroyers, delivering fighters to various garrisons. The battleships were left in port because they weren't anything like fast enough to keep up with 30 knot plus carriers and cruisers. Not to mention it was peace time drill.

They were as alert as they thought they needed to be. Remember it was peace time. Negotiations were underway to try and resolve the differences between the United States and the Empire of Japan. The warnings, such as they were, didn't say where the attacks might be. Several different places were mentioned. The Philippine Islands. Kral Peninsula. Hawaii. the Panama Canal. The West Coast. All were thought to be possible targets. Alert conditions can not be maintained indefinitely.

Various documents were lost or destroyed,also the US had broken the Japanese cypher machine so we have been reading their messages for months at that point.

The codes were dented, not completely broken. I read somewhere, though I can't find it right now...that they were reading only about half of what they were intercepting. Enough to give an idea, but nothing definitive. that's why they were able to give warnings, but nothing as to where, not really. As I said, they suspected, they didn't know. Big difference.

As for what Roosevelt knew? As I understand it, for a while he was kept out of the loop so far as the intelligence intercepts because of security concerns in the White House...It was only just before the attack (a week or two, I think...) that the White House was put back on the list.

Peace time. Negotiations underway. Not a little bit of racism. All these and more contributed to the US getting caught with its pants down on Dec. 7th.

a reply to: mike dangerously

TORA TORA TORA

It was already known ...

The japs had the information, that the "heart" of the US fleet was in Pearl Harbor. Little did they know, that those ships were old rust irons, and that they were really just a bait.

The japs never wanted the US into the war ... their strike on Pearl Harbour was a preemptive strike, intended to paralize the US pacific fleet. They thought, and had been told, that this is where the pacific fleet was at ... only to find out, that they were only old rusty ships. They even sent pilots, to scout and look if the fleet really was there ... the scouts didn't know what they were looking for and saw only a lot of ships.

Hence ... TORA TORA TORA.

This is a very well know part of history.

It was a sneak attack, although I think the history shows that there was an awareness that something was "going on". It is also the historical record that Japan was seeking to remove the US from the equation at least to give them time to do other things.

It's also often lost on our US cousins that the Japanese also declared war on Great Britain and commenced an extensive land grab. Clearly the attack on Pearl Harbor was a Japanese / US event, but it also had other dimensions. It is therefore too simplistic to view the attack on Pearl Harbor in isolation.

a reply to: paraphi

Yep.

SE Asia was what the Japanese really wanted. Pearl Harbor was intended to get, as you said, the US pacific fleet out of the way...

Had they hit the proper target, the Oil Tank Farm, the war might have been an entirely different story. Certainly much longer than it was...

The attack is full of what ifs...

Every researchable piece of evidence suggests the US provoked Japan into the attack. In my opinion it also spells out how we knew it was coming, in an effort to get a war weary country involved in WW2, and especially the Pacific corridor. Carriers were becoming the new way of warfare, and this was simply a springboard for the transition from battleship to carrier.

We knew it was coming, the midget sub encounter, the lack of communication, the carriers all being out including the info that one was slowed by "weather" and delayed its report to Pearl Harbor by just enough time to avoid the attack.

The proposed fact we had broken all Japan's codes (hard to believe we hadn't) along with the allies flat out telling us Japanese carriers were headed out way...

So much adds up to we knew about it but let it happen to declare war with Japan and the pacific region, well cmon now, lets deny a lil ignorance?

a reply to: Vector99

Yes FDR wanted to get the US into the war and letting the attack happen worked in his favor however, the severity of and the attacks true location was not fully anticipated. If Japan had carried out a much smaller attack on American forces the result would have been the same.

FDR would most likely have made the most of it in pounding the war drums.

In the end, Japan threw their best knock out punch, the US quickly recovered and with the help of her Allies stomped Japan flat.

Literally.

originally posted by: Vector99
Every researchable piece of evidence suggests the US provoked Japan into the attack.

It was only a matter of time before this was stated in order to show that the US were in fact the bad guys!

Now, Japan had been militarily nations with gutso since 1931 when they invaded Manchuria. This starting a process of significant tension with the US, leading to a US embargo in 1940 after Japan started to invade French Indochina. Japan was expansionist and wanted to hobble the US while they completed their business in SE Asia, including benefitting from the inability of European nations to act against their aggression due to the small detail that WW2 was busily going on in Europe.

The Japanese needed no provocation. What they wanted was US out of it.

Anyway, typical revisionism, but feel free to provide the "evidence".

a reply to: SLAYER69

He underestimated the scale (FDR), we knew it was coming to pearl harbor though. What was thought to be a small attack was in fact a devastation.

a reply to: paraphi

It doesn't state at all that the US were the bad guys, you do realize Japan WAS officially engaged in the world-war at that time and the US WASN'T, right?

a reply to: Vector99
No, the Japanese were not officially engaged in world war. They were engaged in a regional expansion, fighting China and other conducting other SE Asian aggression. This is unless you trace the origins of WW2 back to Manchuria (Japan) and Ethiopia (Italy), although that timeline is often not considered the start of WW2 as the belligerents were fighting in isolation.

The conventional timeline was that the start of WW2 was the invasion of Poland by the Nazi's in 1939, and the rest is history. Japan and the US entered a couple of years later.

a reply to: paraphi

Semantics, the world was at war, Japan was a major aggressor in the Asian region, which their expansion through military conquests show. The US wasn't militarily involved at that time. Itching to? Sure. But not involved in the war, unlike Japan.

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: paraphi

Semantics, the world was at war, Japan was a major aggressor in the Asian region, which their expansion through military conquests show.

Don't they teach children in the USA about the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere?

The US wasn't militarily involved at that time. Itching to? Sure. But not involved in the war, unlike Japan.

But it was all America's fault for some reason......

a reply to: Vector99

They were expecting an attack in the western Pacific, Guam, the Philippines, Wake. They didn't think thru could sneak a large force as far as Hawaii.

originally posted by: Vector99
Semantics, the world was at war,

No, it's not semantics. Japan was not in a world war as you stated. Japan was at war with China.

I was at a presentation on Pearl Harbor back in 1987. The presenter made what I believe was an excellent statement. He stated that the Pearl Harbor attack was a blessing for the US. His reasoning was that almost half of the fatalities came from the USS Arizona. If the Japanese had not attacked Pearl Harbor, the US Fleet would have gone to sea to challenge the Japanese Fleet. The US Surface Fleet was out classed by the Japanese Surface Fleet, anybody who doubts that can Google "The Battle of Ironbottom Sound". Odds were that the US Fleet would have suffered tremendous losses, in deep water, with a massive loss of life. By attacking Pearl Harbor, the Japanese allowed the US to salvage and rebuild most of the ships that they sank.

originally posted by: paraphi
Japan was at war with China.

And the Soviet Union and Mongolia and Vichy French Indochina.... then at the same time that they attacked Pearl Harbor they attacked Guam, and Wake Island, also attacked the British crown colony of Hong Kong, invaded the American controlled Philippines, invaded Thailand from bases in French Indochina and invaded Malaya.

But it was all the fault of the USA!

originally posted by: hellobruce

But it was all the fault of the USA!

Merika!

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: paraphi
Japan was at war with China.

And the Soviet Union

The Soviet Union didn't declare war on Japan until 1945.