SAS Deaths Inquest, your thoughts?

a reply to: TrueBrit

The first rule of training is 'train hard, fight easy' - training is meant to break down the weaker folk so it happens in a safe environment not a warzone - sadly this time they didn't receive treatment in time.

The first days of training would have covered the importance of water. All other times can be improvised, but no water = death. The brecons are some of the hardest terrain in the world with very changable weather - going prepared with your head switched on is essential in even the nicest of summer days. I've been up there on days where US Marines have had to b rescued due to hypothermia while families and kids walked around perfectly fine as thee's cold and there's the eveil damp old of the UK that drains you of all energy if not prepared.

From the sounds of things the troops who died failed to carry water, assess the situation or to comply with air rescue and emergency procedure causing the delay in them being found. We were given an 800 page survival training guide for a one day 16 mile run so I assume the SAS (reserves) go through at least similar if not far more detailed training.

While I've suffered from heat myself and know how much it affects ones own judgement, if someone with a loaded weapon is unable to function in these conditions then they're not fit to be in the SAS as harsh as it sounds.

While it's a tragedy they died and should never have happened, I think it's too easy to pin all blame on the DS. These were afult, trained soldiers knowing they were entering the hardest challenge of their lives and had sadly failed to recognise their limits and they paid the ultimate price.

However that's going on the assumption the checkpoints were manned and participants were checked to see if they were safe to contiinue at each one. If this wasn't followed then those responsible should recieve the appropriate sentence.

a reply to: bastion

Agreed.

However it is not necessary for people to die in order to establish their suitability for entry into the unit. All that is required is that they either finish the course, or fail to do so. There is no need for the consequence of failing the entry exam, to be death. This was not even training, this was selection. You do not weed out the unsuitable candidates by allowing them to die before they even get into regular training for the regiment. That is just unacceptable.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Fully agreed on that.

What confuses me most is that the one who was still alive was air evacced to Birmingham hospital when Methyr Tydfil is 2 minutes away. Treatment for heat illness is administration of cold saline IV to replenish fluids and bring down core temperature to safe levels. It's a very basic process that even I'm trained to administer after a two day survival course. I'm at a loss as to why they had to be flown that far instead of treated on site then sent to the nearest unit to recover.

a reply to: bastion

Exactly.

So not only were these deaths preventable, because the treatment you suggest requires a two day course, not a five to ten year university track, and therefore that support should have been available on site, but also they failed to efficiently evaluate the quickest route to safety for the fellow you are talking about as well. Heck that treatment should have been given en route, and any further stabilisation and recovery dealt with at hospital.

The whole scenario is beyond wasteful.

a reply to: TrueBrit

At any point in time they could have said, "We need help" and gotten it. They chose to push on and continue even after they were in trouble. There is no requirement to push yourself that far, and the unit isn't going to hold your hand to make sure you drink enough.

Mistakes were made by both sides, and you can't point at one and say it's entirely their fault.

a reply to: TrueBrit

That's exactly what we were taught to do. It's an incredibly easy process. You just take their temperature, if it's over 100, cool them down and give water, takes about 2 - 5 mins to recover. If over 104 then insert drip at elbow and administer 1 -2 litres of cold saline until the temperature has stabalised below 100 (should take 5 - 10 mins) then air evac for aftercare.

It takes a while for core temp to hit that high and signs and symptoms should have been obvious to the staff in retrospect. You're talking people whiting out, their eyes rolling into the back of their heads and barely able to form a sentence due to loss of co-ordination and brain function, not the standard jelly legged exhaustion everyone gets when pushing themselves to the limit. It's blindingly obvious someone is seriously ill even to an untrained eye as they'll lookand act like they've just downed two bottles of vodka.

Just realised I completely agree with you on the DS being at fault here - checkpoints were every 4-5k or so according to the map, that's 30 - 45 mins max distance between points so well within the ranges where the symptoms should have been so obvious they were impossible for anyone not to notice.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: TrueBrit

At any point in time they could have said, "We need help" and gotten it. They chose to push on and continue even after they were in trouble. There is no requirement to push yourself that far, and the unit isn't going to hold your hand to make sure you drink enough.

Mistakes were made by both sides, and you can't point at one and say it's entirely their fault.

Agreed there's blame on all sides but if a soldier gives up they can never retake selection, the only way you can is if you get binned on medical grounds (unsure if claiming they're unfiit to continue is classed as giving up or not. Tragically for them, their decision to skimp on water weight and mix of ds apparently being complacent has cost them thier lives.

a reply to: bastion

That's one of the things with SOF units. They get a lot of people that aren't capable and end up pushing too hard until they get hurt.

Even the Rangers see it. They have guys that go year after year until they use up their last chance and can't go again. They lose a lot of candidates to the road march that have to be carried out by truck or even ambulance.

Those who make it through the training are the best soldiers the world will see!

There are many reasons why the SAS are the best and most feared special services! The training is probably one of them.

When these deaths occurred I was told by a territorial trainer (a man that did tours of duty in Ireland) that the S.A.S. dont want part time S.A.S. personnel in their ranks and so these unfortunates were not treated well before the gruelling trek and the whole incident was not as simple as it has been made out to be The full time S.A.S. feel they need full time colleagues whom they can trust with their lives and not some part time "toy soldiers" so maybe ask not how they died but why they didnt live. Its a very harsh and political world in the battlefield right now

originally posted by: astra001uk
When these deaths occurred I was told by a territorial trainer (a man that did tours of duty in Ireland) that the S.A.S. dont want part time S.A.S. personnel in their ranks and so these unfortunates were not treated well before the gruelling trek and the whole incident was not as simple as it has been made out to be The full time S.A.S. feel they need full time colleagues whom they can trust with their lives and not some part time "toy soldiers" so maybe ask not how they died but why they didnt live. Its a very harsh and political world in the battlefield right now

Really interesting take on it, I can imagine them getting bashed about more for being TA, par for the course. I personally wouldnt like to think that anyone at a checkpoint would not administer medical aid or intervene because they were TA though.

When is the report out?

a reply to: astra001uk

The son of a British Army specialist told me some of his fathers friends had been sent to their deaths not to achieve the stated objective of the mission, but because their deaths were politically useful. I got the impression they were regarded as part of the equipment, used up to stimulate the budget. Harsh and political.