SAS Deaths Inquest, your thoughts?

So I have followed this story for quite some but for those of you who don't know in 2013 3 Army reservists died whilst undertaking the "Fan-Dance" during SAS selection and there is currently a inquest going through he courts getting quite a lot of attention.

Now I think it is god awful these poor guys died, really I do.

But the other day I was listening to somebody talking saying it was the Army's fault for letting the training go ahead, they should have changed the day of the exercise so that candidates didn't have to do a timed march in temperatures approaching 40c.

Sorry, but what is the point in that!

Its SAS selection, these guys are operating out in the Middle East where it gets hot, the bad guys like ISIS are not going to take a day off because its a little hot outside and our best guys should be tested to the limits to ensure they can meet these demands. I know that sounds really harsh but its SAS selection, it is one of the toughest military courses in the world and for good reason. To start lowering standards because of these sad deaths to me is just totally stupid.

Anyway I was just curious if others sheared my views on this or am I just being really insensitive and harsh?

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Train like you're going to fight or its pretty pointless.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I think it has more to do with the water deprivation during this ritual test that was the ultimate cause. They do this test to weed out the weaker links, unfortunately it costs humans their lives.

If my memory serves me right I think another died just last month from the same cause

I would say that these guys are adults and most adults understand and know their breaking points. Even the body will give out at a certain point. I would say that it is the commanding officers duty to render aide should that person go down, but it is the person himself that is ultimately responsible for understanding what they can/can't handle and adjust accordingly.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Train like you're going to fight or its pretty pointless.

That is exactly my thoughts on this!

a reply to: Vasa Croe

No one knows there limits until they are tested, basically the while point of the test, to measure coping mechanisms

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Train like you're going to fight or its pretty pointless.

If you're going to fight by killing your own people via marching them to death can you let me know which country you own? I'd like to invade it.

originally posted by: Pinke

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Train like you're going to fight or its pretty pointless.

If you're going to train by killing your own people via marching them to death can you let me know which country you own? I'd like to invade it.

I don't see this as any different than kids that die in football training. It happens. They get pushed and push themselves and their bodies can't handle it. Obviously it is not pushing too hard for everyone because these cases are very few and far between.

they have no water, they were supposed to cancel the training but it would take more paperwork.And they train well beyond what they would ever experience thats why they are the best in the world,one had a temp of 105.8f not many people would survive that heat whit no water for hours while running with full kit on.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I agree with you to an extent, but there is a difference between weeding out the weak, and killing them.

Its a planned exercise, which means there is plenty of time for the Army to get resources on the ground and READY to deal with any collapse, the very second it begins to drag a soldier down. It's pretty simple, if you collapse, you do not get into the SAS/stay in the SAS. What you get instead is immediately evacuated to a hospital to get your fluids replaced, your core temperature regulated properly, and your body checked over for other problems caused by the collapse.

You sure as hell do not send a bunch of guys out on a training exercise, only to let them die because they got hot. You can let them fall over, but you cannot let them die on training. It's not worth it.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

It's fairly different from football training in that you don't get groups of three people dying in a short time period. I know that's a bit obvious but I feel it needs to be said.

There has been a comment from an SAS trainer criticizing cut backs to available helicopters to rescue those who have trouble in the training. Also a key part of the military training is knowing one's limits and knowing when you or your colleagues are hurt, and taking prior action and planning before and during when that happens.

It's all very macho to send a bunch of people running up a hill with no water to be the best of the best, but really were these deaths necessary? It's one thing when a person has a tragic heart attack, breaks their back, discharges a firearm accidentally, or has a stroke ... it's another when your military accidentally kills three people and has several more in bad condition when it's a controlled environment and no sudden accidents happened.

My thoughts are it was a sad but rare occurrence , these things can happen when you aspire to join an elite force.

a reply to: Pinke

That's not what I said and you know it. You don't call of dessert training because it's too hot. You don't call off winter training because it's too cold.

During Vietnam US pilots trained for air to air combat by flying against the same type of aircraft that they were flying, and weren't allowed to close to within a mile or two of the other aircraft. When they got into real combat they watched their kill ratio, which in Korea was 12-1 at times, drop to as low as 3-4 to 1.

a reply to: gortex

I feel if they had another chance to do it, they would, as they were so determined to be part of the best

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Pinke

You don't call of dessert training because it's too hot..

Sounds delicious! Sorry I had to do it.

I trained a good portion of my career at Ft. Benning and almost monthly a story came out of someone dying from hypothermia, dehydration, accidentally shot or blown up... even suicide.

There is nothing wrong with pushing guys..a handful will die cause something comes up missed in the medical screening on the other hand you absolutely do manipulate your training to prevent deaths. What is the point of training in a the middle of a lightning storm on flat ground? Most of the time we were forced to sit there and keep a low profile while being stormed on.

And even in real world missions the weather absolutely affects the mission. Any commander that doesn't take that into account is severely lacking tactics and logic.

I'm as hard core as gets when it comes to training, but there are definitely times to adjust it.

Oh and my statement isn't directed at you Zaphod just making a general statement. Except the dessert part..that was for you haha

a reply to: rockpaperhammock

Damn you auto correct!

I agree, you absolutely do what you can to have assistance ready, and you try to minimize risk in training, while making sure they're ready.

There are always times weather is going to screw everything up. I used to have a beret my friend gave me that had a nice scorch mark on it where her unit got hit by lightning in the field.

Can't hack a ruck in peacetime with nobody shooting at you, probably not gonna hack it when it counts.

I think the fellas on Bravo 2 Zero wouldn't complain about a hike in those conditions.

Have any of you been required to care for a recruit who ended up brain-injured from heatstroke because commanders didn't pay attention to the health of their men?
Did you ever see a bright, eager, energetic young man turn into basically a vegetable because he was doing what his commanders told him to do? Is the commander there now to feed him three times a day and change his diapers?
Oh no, they don't all die from such incidents, some are only injured and sent home.

a reply to: diggindirt

They could've quit.

It's selection, which means it was essentially a "try out" for SAS. They can quit any time they like, get a cup of tea and go back to their unit.

a reply to: Shamrock6

You don't quit in the SAS...its the pinnacle. You quit uve failed.