The unaffordable higher minimum wage fallacy

originally posted by: daryllyn
a reply to: Edumakated

They still deserve a minimum of a livable wage.

I hate to break it to you sweetheart but no one "deserves" anything. Unfortunately, we don't live in a world with unicorns and rainbows where life is picture perfect.

Minimum wage should be high enough to where people can live off it. I'm not talking about being able to buy 40k+ brand new vehicle every 3-4 years, 20k boat, beach home or cabin.

How can we have 17 trillion dollar debt but can't have basic standard of living or basic income in this country. We can afford 800+ military bases but not free health care for every American that makes under 50k a year. If you make under 50K a year, you shouldn't have to pay any taxes.

a reply to: AndyMayhew

I agree with that point but the real reason it can't work is because we let a few greedy people do whatever they want.

We imprison drug addicts because we recognize they have a real problem but we don't imprison money addicts and they are far more destructive and harmful to society.

Its a mental sickness.

originally posted by: Echo007
Minimum wage should be high enough to where people can live off it. I'm not talking about being able to buy 40k+ brand new vehicle every 3-4 years, 20k boat, beach home or cabin.

How can we have 17 trillion dollar debt but can't have basic standard of living or basic income in this country. We can afford 800+ military bases but not free health care for every American that makes under 50k a year. If you make under 50K a year, you shouldn't have to pay any taxes.

Uh, people who make under $50k a year don't pay hardly any income taxes. Go look up the IRS tables as to who pays taxes. Despite the groveling, almost all income taxes are paid by the upper income earners.

a reply to: Edumakated

Nah, thats a strawman, thats not a viable point of view.

a reply to: Edumakated

I hate to break it to you sweetheart but no one "deserves" anything. Unfortunately, we don't live in a world with unicorns and rainbows where life is picture perfect.

No.

Anyone working full time, should be able to afford the basics. I don't care what the job is, what their background is, what mistakes they have made.....

If you work full time, you should be paid enough to live. Period.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Do you have any solutions?

Absolutely.

1. Reinstate import tariffs and set them at a level which makes it financially disadvantageous to manufacture goods outside the US and import them here for sale.

2. Make the United States a federally mandated "Right to work" state.

3. Eliminate the federal ban on construction of new coal fire, natural gas, and hydro plants. Reduction of energy costs equals reduced overhead rates, equals less pressure on corporations to have available resources to increase wages.

4. Eliminate Obamacare. In case nobody has noticed, the additional pressure of Obamacare mandates on payrolls has equaled a reduction in actual direct compensation rates in the US.

5. Enforce immigration laws, deport illegals. Why pay $10 an hour when you have a laborer happy to do the job for $5? The fact that the cheapest labor available in the US is also here illegally makes this solution a no-brainer.

6. Quadruple the property tax rates on bank owned homes when the bank has sat on the property for longer than 6 months.

7. Institute a progressive property tax or create a specialized business license with a graduated base rate for people who own multiple housing units and rent them out. Attach an "affordable housing" exemption to these properties which allows the owner to pay less in property tax if they rent the unit at a price point below market average.

8. STOP PRINTING MONEY LIKE IT'S A GODDAMNED PARKER BROTHERS MONOPOLY FACTORY!!!!! This one is HUGE and the most important step of all. If this doesn't stop, America will be dead and the dollar will be worthless, making all the rest of this argument pointless.

9. Make welfare pay less than working does. This is a major issue right now and, arguably, it could go either way. Bottom line, at all points in history people have had to take out 2 jobs at times to make ends meet. The problem today is there is a shortage of jobs. #1 on my list addresses that problem, #9 provides the kick to the ass required to actually force people to take responsibility for themselves.

10. Increase tax breaks for companies which hire locally. This is more of a state business tax issue than a federal one, but a company headquartered in one state but doing most of their work in another state shouldn't receive a benefit from their headquarter state because they aren't building the local economy in that state to the same degree as they would by creating jobs there.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: daryllyn
a reply to: Edumakated

They still deserve a minimum of a livable wage.

I hate to break it to you sweetheart but no one "deserves" anything. Unfortunately, we don't live in a world with unicorns and rainbows where life is picture perfect.

I'd like to think we live in a civilized, somewhat enlightened civilization.

We have the resources, the money, the technology, medical understanding and know how to provide the basic needs for everyone in this country, without ever over burdening the population. Yet we don't.

Instead, we feed dehumanizing memes to the middle class about the working poor. We turn the working poor into ingrates, needy moochers and leeches. We tell the working poor by their wages that they're unimportant -- when in fact every human life matters. The wealthy pit the middle class against the lower class. The top 1% of this country feed the middle and lower classes some kind of propaganda that reinforces an almost Stockholm syndrome-like defense of these people.

A hard day's work deserves a wage that can feed, clothe and house you. If you want extravagance and more, educate yourself and acquire skills that aren't easy to learn. Not everyone can, should, or will do that though.

People that put dollar signs to people's lives make me sick and have no place in a truly advanced civilization.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

9. Make welfare pay less than working does.

I agree with almost every point on your list. I do have a problem with the quoted statement, however.

Do you have a source to back up the claim that welfare pays more than working does?

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Awesome ideas.

a reply to: daryllyn

Its not welfare itself that pays more but the benefits are amazing.

Healthcare, subsidized housing, food stamps, and I dont even know what else.

And perhaps I view humanity with more optimism than some, and you can say I live in a "fantasy land" -- so be it. I just have seen the good in people, and know that we have the potential to be so much more than we currently are. It saddens me deeply that we aren't doing more to move ourselves forward in a positive direction.

Nope, instead we'd rather bitch and fight among ourselves and point fingers at who's to blame.

We all share a piece of blame over this mess. We all have played a part in things getting to where they're at.

originally posted by: daryllyn
Do you have a source to back up the claim that welfare pays more than working does?

Sure do!
www.cato.org...

Nationwide, our study found that the wage-equivalent value of benefits for a mother and two children ranged from a high of $60,590 in Hawaii to a low of $11,150 in Idaho. In 33 states and the District of Columbia, welfare pays more than an $8-an-hour job. In 12 states and DC, the welfare package is more generous than a $15-an-hour job.

Some real interesting arguments here but I think there is more complexity then we are looking at. Looking at minimum wage as the only cost is not real. Places with low wages tend to have high turnover and that high turnover has a productivity cost. The time that new employee comes up to speed and is productive costs a company. Higher wages tends to lead to lower turnover and employees with higher morale. Look at Costco, at mine I have seen many of the same employees for years and over that time I have seen the good ones move up the ladder.

Mutability of Wages

This article puts the above argument into a bit more of a graphic depiction.

And now Walmart gave it workers a raise in April and they have already seen lower turnover and more job applications.

Walmart Raised Wages In April. It’s Already Seeing The Benefits.
This was in response to the pressure that has been put on Walmart to pay it employees a more liveable wage.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

I'm not sure how to fix it, as I'm sure people would scream bloody murder if I suggested a cap on profits (ie; after a certain percentage of profit, the company is required by law to send it downstream to their workers). That would never fly -- it's wealth redistribution at it's simplest.

BLOODY MURDER!!!!!


Heh, no, I'm totally being facetious.

I agree with you 100%, and I also suggest that a "Maximum Ratio" is the best solution. There is not one CEO alive who deserves to make 5000x the wage they pay their lowest-paid employee. It is abominable.
Just today, I saw an article about that sleazeball Jamie Dimon patronizing Elizabeth Warren.

The sites with the story are not loading correctly for me....but I'll edit with links and quotes if I can.
salon.com
and
alternet.com
.
.
.
ah, here we go: Here Little Lady, Let Me Tell You How Banking Works: Jamie Dimon Mansplains To Elizabeth Warren

According to a report from Bloomberg, Dimon recalled a time when he met with Warren, the then head of oversight for the massive government bailout of banks known as TARP, to discuss credit cards. The former CEO of the Chicago-based Bank One, told the room full of Midwest business leaders that he met with the former Harvard bankruptcy professor after she was tapped to charter the new Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, the government agency tasked with providing oversight in the wake of the massive government bank bailout known as TARP, and claimed that Warren confessed to owning and loving his bank’s credit card at the time.

Warren herself recalls a more recent meeting in 2013. She describes in her book, A Fighting Chance, how Dimon shrugged off warnings that JP Morgan was out of compliance with new rules laid out by the Dodd-Frank law. According to Warren “he leaned back and slowly smiled. ‘So hit me with a fine. We can afford it.’”

Smug bastard.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

5. Enforce immigration laws, deport illegals. Why pay $10 an hour when you have a laborer happy to do the job for $5? The fact that the cheapest labor available in the US is also here illegally makes this solution a no-brainer.

I always loved the is the immigrant fault logic, why pay for 10$ and not 5? Because its the law, it's not the immigrant fault, it's the fault of the criminal that hire them.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Im all for maximum ratio.

U.S. should copy Switzerland and consider a 'maximum wage' ratio, too

Swiss voters on November 24 will consider capping executive pay at 12 times what the lowest-paid worker at a company makes -- the premise being that a CEO should make no more in a month than a low-level employee earns in a year.

a reply to: onequestion

Right? I think it was you who first introduced the idea to my attention......
I knew the theory, but not the 'name' of it. It's awesome.

It's absolutely necessary, just like profit caps.........THE EMPLOYEES deserve the fruits of their labor, not their "CEO"
(Chief Evil Operator????).

originally posted by: Indigent
a reply to: burdman30ott6

5. Enforce immigration laws, deport illegals. Why pay $10 an hour when you have a laborer happy to do the job for $5? The fact that the cheapest labor available in the US is also here illegally makes this solution a no-brainer.

I always loved the is the immigrant fault logic, why pay for 10$ and not 5? Because its the law, it's not the immigrant fault, it's the fault of the criminal that hire them.

Please don't play the illegal immigrant = immigrant card on this. ILLEGAL immigrants are breaking the law by being here. They are not blameless any more than the employers who hire them ILLEGALLY are blameless. Bottom line, America has immigration laws and a sitting president who not only refuses to enforce them, but has gone out of his way to increase the number of illegals in America exponentially. It absolutely represents a drag on the economy and negatively impacts the employment of AMERICANS looking for entry level and unskilled labor jobs.

a reply to: daryllyn

The question:

Raising the minimum wage to a livable one, would greatly reduce the number of people receiving government assistance (or the amount received, depending), and boost the buying power of the poor.

Would those things NOT be a benefit to the economy?

Cost of Labor is 40%-50% of the average companies revenue. Its a ratio based model with variable staffing models used to make sure that the budgeted labor cost is maintained regardless of revenue.

If you increase minimum wage, then you impact the labor cost %. To maintain the business model, then, I have 2 options: i can try to impact my cost of goods, or i can change my price point for sale. Since I presume that my vendors won't give me product for cheaper (as they will also have this labor cost % problem that we are talking about, so I will likely actually see an increase in Cost of Goods), then that leaves price point.

So now i raise my prices. And the loop is fully closed. Because the only ones really benefitting from that is Uncle Sam, via higher tax revenues. Everyone makes a little more money (and pays a little more tax on it) only to find that they also have to spend a little more money to buy the same product.

Lets say i run a restaurant that makes all its money on Breakfast. Eggs have almost tripled in price...how do i offset that cost increase? Raise prices, or lower wages? Im still going to have to pay myself, right? So who gets the shaft: my employees, me, or my customers? Someone will have to pay that cost increase for the eggs.....