Can Muslims Answer These Conundrums?

a reply to: TheChrome

Text One thing that I disagree with Christendom and Islam on is hell. There is nothing in the bible that indicates a hell, it is an ancient mythological concept adopted by many religions but has no basis in the bible or true Christianity. The after life was of ancient Sumerian and Egyptian religion and was morphed into most all other faiths. The bible indicates we as humans are a separate creation from the spirit realm, and our purpose is eternal life living on earth as a restored perfect people. That is why Jesus gave his life to redeem man from original sin, to restore us to our original status on earth. That is why the bible speaks of a resurrection. This will happen soon. We are living during the reign of the 7th and final world power listed in the bible (UK, US) which will soon be replaced by the Theocracy of God according to prophecy.

The word hell is used in most all NT bibles. The KJV translators use it 23 times with 16 of the 23 times in the red letter. Matthew uses hell 9 times, Mark uses hell 3 times, Luke uses hell 3 times, Acts uses hell 2 times, James uses hell 1 time, 2 Peter uses hell 1 time and John uses hell 4 times in Revelation. Hell was translated from among over 5500 Greek manuscripts by a multitude of translators.

Hell is understood by Jesus and Apostles and disciples as being an existing place in the earth which the Hebrews call Sheol and is regarded by some as having seven compartments for degrees of separation. Some Hebrew regard hell as the neither world or under world.

You wrote -
Quote - There is nothing in the bible that indicates a hell, it is an ancient mythological concept adopted by many religions but has no basis in the bible or true Christianity. - Unquote

Would you mind telling me which bible you are referencing and which Christianity are you talking about?

Mankind had forgiveness prior to Jesus. The purpose of Jesus was to establish His kingdom of heaven. Before Jesus no one ascended into heaven but were imprisoned in Sheol. After Jesus all justified spirits were and are today ascended into the kingdom of heaven.

Warminlndy,
Thank you for one of the best threads that I have read. I enjoyed your great knowledge and the way you replied when undaunted with overwhelming odds. You have proven to be a great debater and brilliant scholar. My agreement is not needed but is always there.

Sitting here at keyboard and reading and re reading some of the responses and disinformation posts that comes from some is enough to answer what I had suspected in the past. ATS is filled with a club mentality which finally got a taste of what they had been doing for quite a while. When that shoe was on the other foot you saw the club mentality quickly surround their nest in defense of their deity. The sword is indeed double edged.

originally posted by: Seede
Warminlndy,
Thank you for one of the best threads that I have read. I enjoyed your great knowledge and the way you replied when undaunted with overwhelming odds. You have proven to be a great debater and brilliant scholar. My agreement is not needed but is always there.

Sitting here at keyboard and reading and re reading some of the responses and disinformation posts that comes from some is enough to answer what I had suspected in the past. ATS is filled with a club mentality which finally got a taste of what they had been doing for quite a while. When that shoe was on the other foot you saw the club mentality quickly surround their nest in defense of their deity. The sword is indeed double edged.

I think they should know by now that the sword is the Word of God, the Word of God spoken and became flesh, and by that Word of God is the whole world judged.

We do not wave carnal weapons, because the carnal sword is not ours to hold. We must say to those who wave the carnal sword to cut off the ear, that is not how we do it, sheathe the carnal sword, so it and listen to the Word.

The Quran dictates a carnal sword, one that Mohammed claims he cut the moon with, the same sword that beheads, the same sword that cuts off hands and feet, the same sword that cuts a mother from her breastfeeding infant.

But this is the knowledge, the Word that divides marrow from bone, bone from flesh. When one is in the presence of God or one is confronted with the understanding that they are what they are, corrupt flesh before a holy and just God, that we realize our own faults and sins.

The adulterous man that stands before his wife and that realization of how much he hurt her, that's the feeling. The same feeling of the one who sits in the seat of the accused in court and hangs his head when hearing his crimes, that's the same feeling.

Guilt, remorse, regret, all the real things we know that is part of the human condition, we know we can never in this life ever achieve goodness by what we do, no amount of self-flagellation or self-punishment ever redeems or brings us back to that point where we were before we did that great harm to ourselves or others.

And it is by the Word that we know we are either judged, condemned or forgiven, because we cannot by ourselves ever change what we are and a world of people turning, always running from themselves, their actions, their regret, their shame.

In Christ there is no shame and that is the great redeeming, that we know we could never be what we know is good, we can only pretend. The Holy Spirit helps our infirmities, and our Savior took on our infirmities, that the Good took on the guilt, shame, regret, remorse, all those things that we deal with every moment in our lives. He took that punishment for us, the Law of Reciprocity, the law that says that what we have sown, that is what we will reap.

This has been made so difficult for people who have heard an idea that they are masters of their own destiny, they have no means of assuaging their own remorse and guilt when they know they have failed others, so they must then find their own way, and yet the human error is believing they can, but they sear their own conscience until they cannot feel the empathy for the pain of others.

Mohammed was seared in his conscience, to get worse and then giving himself absolution...

His own wife said of him...

Virtues of the Prayer Hall (Sutra of the Musalla)
Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 9 :: Hadith 490

Narrated 'Aisha:

The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away. for I disliked to face him.

Dogs and donkeys, that really is a sad thing for a wife to endure, the prophet sleeping with every woman he could find, because he absolved himself to the point of treating his wife like a dog.

What can you say about a man who says this of himself?

That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path, Sura al-Fath 48:2

Why then on his deathbed did he call out for forgiveness, as Allah cut his aorta, that he himself would say what would happen if he were a false prophet?

Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

After all of his life of murder, rape, pillaging, pludering...he asked forgiveness for secret and public sins, the question is, was he forgiven? He called out for it, but how then does God forgive because one simply asks for it then continues on in willful sins such as that?

The Bible says that unless your heart is changed, your actions do not change. What is the point of circumcision of the heart of it means the heart remains as it was before?

1 Timothy 4 King James Version (KJV) 4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Titus explains it very well

Titus 1:16King James Version (KJV) 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Oh, he professed to know God but in his very works denying Christ, was abominable, disobedient to the Word, and reprobate with a seared conscience that attempted to absolve himself and yet the only one who could give absolution, he denied. Mohammed died with his sins in his heart, with full knowledge of his sins on his mind, with the blood of innocence on his hands, there can be no forgiveness, because God had already judged him by his works.

If he confirms that which came before, then he knew full well what he was doing was wrong.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: TheChrome

Text One thing that I disagree with Christendom and Islam on is hell. There is nothing in the bible that indicates a hell, it is an ancient mythological concept adopted by many religions but has no basis in the bible or true Christianity. The after life was of ancient Sumerian and Egyptian religion and was morphed into most all other faiths. The bible indicates we as humans are a separate creation from the spirit realm, and our purpose is eternal life living on earth as a restored perfect people. That is why Jesus gave his life to redeem man from original sin, to restore us to our original status on earth. That is why the bible speaks of a resurrection. This will happen soon. We are living during the reign of the 7th and final world power listed in the bible (UK, US) which will soon be replaced by the Theocracy of God according to prophecy.

The word hell is used in most all NT bibles. The KJV translators use it 23 times with 16 of the 23 times in the red letter. Matthew uses hell 9 times, Mark uses hell 3 times, Luke uses hell 3 times, Acts uses hell 2 times, James uses hell 1 time, 2 Peter uses hell 1 time and John uses hell 4 times in Revelation. Hell was translated from among over 5500 Greek manuscripts by a multitude of translators.

Hell is understood by Jesus and Apostles and disciples as being an existing place in the earth which the Hebrews call Sheol and is regarded by some as having seven compartments for degrees of separation. Some Hebrew regard hell as the neither world or under world.

You wrote -
Quote - There is nothing in the bible that indicates a hell, it is an ancient mythological concept adopted by many religions but has no basis in the bible or true Christianity. - Unquote

Would you mind telling me which bible you are referencing and which Christianity are you talking about?

Mankind had forgiveness prior to Jesus. The purpose of Jesus was to establish His kingdom of heaven. Before Jesus no one ascended into heaven but were imprisoned in Sheol. After Jesus all justified spirits were and are today ascended into the kingdom of heaven.

You are correct in understanding the Hebrew word Sheol, and the Greek equivalent word is Hades. Both words are referred to as "Hell" in some translations. What do both words means in Hebrew and Greek? Death, or the grave.

Here is what the bible says about Hell:

Psalm 146:4 "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. -KJV
Ecclesiastes 9:5 " For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing" -NIV

So when a person dies, they are dead. Their thoughts perish. Their soul dies too!

Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins is the one who will die. -NIV

Jesus was in "Hell" which is the grave. Acts 2:27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell." -KJV He was DEAD for 3 days, before resurrected.

You are correct in saying "before Jesus no one ascended into heaven." However, since there are many references to the "resurrection" in the future, how is it possible that people have been called out of the grave yet when the resurrection has not even happened? I would disagree that mankind had forgiveness before him (Jesus), for he was the perfect man who bought back what Adam lost.

What translation of the bible anyone uses is irrelevant, the truth can be understood from them all. The only substantial difference between translations is the omission of God's name, which appears nearly 7000 times in the original text. In Arabic it would be pronounced something like Yekh-A-Wah.

a reply to: TheChrome

So when a person dies, they are dead. Their thoughts perish. Their soul dies too!

Let me start here. Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Prior to that the man was a dead soul. So my understanding is that people are living souls but do not have a soul. They have a spirit inside that soul. To sum it up, I believe that the humans are souls which are bodies of flesh and blood and bone. As God breathed a portion of life into that dead soul it then became a soul with a spirit of life.

Soul is used very loosely by the translators and especially from Hebrew to Greek. Afterlife was an evolving belief and not set in stone by the Hebrews.

Psalm 146:4 "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. -KJV

No one really knows who wrote all of the Psalms. There were many authors over many centuries which probably ended in about 537 BCE or so. it was observed by those in that day that a person died and his thoughts died with him. They knew no better than that. Also most believed that the Jewish afterlife was a collective happening. By that is meant that all people were interred in Sheol as a family of spirits. The idea then sprang forth that if Torah had bad people in this life who were to be punished then why not in the afterlife. This was not an overnight correction but took many centuries to breed into the Hebrew format.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Reading that in context you can see that Solomon was referencing that when dead one is not aware of anything of the living but not inferring that the dead are in an unconscious state.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Once again it is clear that the body of flesh and blood (soul) is not eternal and is re claimed by God. It returns to its source but the spirit is the everlasting portion of the entity and is you. The mind does not perish at death but the soul that sins does die. Why? Because it is flesh and blood and all souls do sin.

Jesus was in "Hell" which is the grave. Acts 2:27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell." -KJV He was DEAD for 3 days, before resurrected.

My understanding is that Jesus resurrected immediately upon death and was in the heart of the earth the next three days and three nights.

Luke_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus died that afternoon at about 3pm and the new day started at about 6pm that same afternoon.
Paradise is in the third heaven (2nd Corinthians 12:2-4) ---

how is it possible that people have been called out of the grave yet when the resurrection has not even happened?

Are you referring to Matthew 27:52 ? -- "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,"
Those were the bodies of recent dead terrestrial souls only. The doctrine of Jesus is that only the spirit is judged and resurrected and only once. That differs from the rabbinic resurrection. Those bodies did not resurrect. They eventually fell back to the earth to their source.

Afterlife is a very deep and worthy study which cannot be explained here in detail. There is a book called "Jewish Views Of The Afterlife" by Simcha Paull Raphael which is still available at Amazon and is 473 pages.

a reply to: Seede


And the Psalmist said "thou I make my bed in hell, you are there". The Spanish translation is Seol.

Psalm 139:8

If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Si subiere a los cielos, allí estás tú; Y si en el Seol hiciere mi estrado, he aquí, allí tú estás.

8 Führe ich gen Himmel, so bist du da. Bettete ich mir in die Hölle, siehe, so bist du auch da.

Si je monte aux cieux, tu y es; Si je me couche au séjour des morts, t'y voilà

Spanish has a lot of loanwords from Hebrew, for instance Saturday is Sabado, which is Sabbath. So the Spanish translators chose Sheol, the French Louis Segond chose death, Luther chose Hell. (meaning only the word chosen to express what they intended for translation)

Wycliffe uses Sheol, he calls it "The land of the dead".

The Psalmist states that in Sheol, God is there also.

Daniel 12:2 "Multitudes who sleep in the dust will awake; some to everlasting life., others to shame and everlasting contempt.

This depicts the time when Michael (Jesus) takes action on the earth. People remain "in the dust" or "dead" until then.

Verse one: At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people will arise. There will be a time of distress such as not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is written in the book-will be delivered.

The tribulation must occur first-the resurrection happens after that, when the Kingdom takes control of the earth.

a reply to: TheChrome

Daniel 12:2 "Multitudes who sleep in the dust will awake; some to everlasting life., others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel had no idea of the Apostle John's Revelation. In fact even the Apostles and disciples had no idea of two gatherings (Resurrections). Everyone at this time was taught of one final resurrection at the end of days and were taught that the dead body would arise from the grave and be re united with the spirit and then be judged. That was basically the resurrection belief of most all Hebrews at this time.

But then Jesus came to teach that while some of this may be true, not all of their belief was true. There will be a gathering in a first resurrection in the future. This follows the great tribulation known as Jacobs Trouble. Then the Messiah (Yahusha Hamashiach) will return and govern a thousand years upon this earth. Then the final resurrection will come upon all of the people who are alive at this time and creation destroyed. This last resurrection is that of which Daniel was taught.

John 11:23-26
(23) Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. (24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

You see by this that most all believed one resurrection for everyone in the last day. Jesus teaches a last day but most do not understand what He means by last day. I understand this to mean each and everyone of our last day as our soul dies and our spirit judged. Why should I believe this? Because no one can be in heaven without being judged and there are multitudes in heaven today. A person who is not worthy cannot be heaven. If they were then there would be no Sheol or hell.

Hebrews_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The flesh will die and return to its source only once. If the resurrection as Daniel understood it was to be then the body would have to die twice. I am not saying that Daniel was wrong but only that he was incomplete. Jesus came to complete the law and prophets and to make the way straight.

This depicts the time when Michael (Jesus) takes action on the earth. People remain "in the dust" or "dead" until then.

I don't quite understand this statement. Are you saying that Michael is Jesus? Are you JW? Not being in contention with with you but if so then we do not agree. My faith is that Jesus was the begotten Son of God and not a creation as this infers.

a reply to: WarminIndy

The Psalmist states that in Sheol, God is there also.

Yes, thank you.
If I need correction I hope you will feel free to be the one to correct me. I do mess up at times.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: WarminIndy

The Psalmist states that in Sheol, God is there also.

Yes, thank you.
If I need correction I hope you will feel free to be the one to correct me. I do mess up at times.

We all do at times, that's why we have the freedom within Christianity to correct each other when need be. That's what we bring to the table, the ability to smile and remind.

You can also correct me when I am wrong, I'll just smile and say thank you.