Liquid on Mars, NASA Photos, up close SOL 0712

originally posted by: tigertatzen
That cookie-cutter mentality is keeping people from seeing all the wonderful possibilities out there by stubbornly and rigidly clinging to laws of science that are only known to be applicable here.

Laws of science are applicable everywhere in the universe (apart from inside the black holes, perhaps). Atoms and chemical elements behave on Mars in the same way as they behave on Earth, which is why we're finding sediments, hydrated minerals, and organics on Mars, thanks to Curiosity's scientific instruments.

Saying "Mars is different from Earth, therefore absolutely anything can happen there" is faulty logic.

a reply to: wildespace

I thought laws were made to be broken , ergo progression , not prison , talking of broken, I couldn't happen but notice that both humidity data and wind speed data , was absent not just currently , but since the mission began there appears to be not a single entry for any of the sols so far .. did they have a failing of some of the equipment on landing or something ?, or is it just a case of an error on the website ?

are there any more sites where this data can be obtained ?

funbox

a reply to: wildespace

Laws of science are applicable everywhere in the universe (apart from inside the black holes, perhaps). Atoms and chemical elements behave on Mars in the same way as they behave on Earth, which is why we're finding sediments, hydrated minerals, and organics on Mars, thanks to Curiosity's scientific instruments.

Saying "Mars is different from Earth, therefore absolutely anything can happen there" is faulty logic.

First of all, that is not even remotely what I said. Second, if you have never been all over the Universe, then how can you possibly say that our laws of science are applicable everywhere? That is faulty logic. I'm not saying Mars is different. I'm saying Mars is a completely alien planet. The conditions on Mars are not exactly as they are on Earth, which has been said over and over in this thread. So, yes things that are not possible (as far as we know) here could very well be possible there. Yes, there will be similarities. But to say that everything we know to be true on Earth is the same anywhere in the Universe? Negative. That's not logic. That's an assumption, and a dangerous one. The best we can do is make an educated guess, and it is the height of pomposity to think otherwise.

People who think they know everything there is to know usually end up being the ones who really know nothing at all. And the scientific community does not agree with you either...if they did, we'd have no reason to explore space because what would be the point? We know it all, right? So there would be nothing to discover. Case closed. Only, we don't. And the scientists who are gathering and interpreting that data know that. They do not have tunnel vision. They are open to possibilities other than what we already know to be possible.

originally posted by: wildespace

originally posted by: tigertatzen
That cookie-cutter mentality is keeping people from seeing all the wonderful possibilities out there by stubbornly and rigidly clinging to laws of science that are only known to be applicable here.

Laws of science are applicable everywhere in the universe (apart from inside the black holes, perhaps). Atoms and chemical elements behave on Mars in the same way as they behave on Earth, which is why we're finding sediments, hydrated minerals, and organics on Mars, thanks to Curiosity's scientific instruments.

Saying "Mars is different from Earth, therefore absolutely anything can happen there" is faulty logic.

But laws of physics...

September 9, 2010
Source:
Swinburne University of Technology
Summary:
A team of astrophysicists based in Australia and England has uncovered evidence that the laws of physics are different in different parts of the universe. The report describes how one of the supposed fundamental constants of Nature appears not to be constant after all. Instead, this 'magic number' known as the fine-structure constant -- 'alpha' for short -- appears to vary throughout the universe.

www.sciencedaily.com...

a reply to: Char-Lee

your on form tonight

I suppose a certainty can only really be achieved at the beginning and at the end, everything in-between has to be fluid doesn't it ? in motion

like the human condition ,stages all through out, but nothing really to grab onto, no final piece , no all encompassing answer , just a merry-go-round of additional questions .. peel back a bit more and another layer appears

fun innit

funbox

originally posted by: tigertatzen
a reply to: wildespace
First of all, that is not even remotely what I said.

"stubbornly and rigidly clinging to laws of science that are only known to be applicable here." - that's what you said, and I assume you mean the Earth.

Second, if you have never been all over the Universe, then how can you possibly say that our laws of science are applicable everywhere?

We can observe the universe using a multitude of instruments (including out own eyes), so there's no need to be there in person (although that would help refine our knowledge). Are you saying that centuries of astronomical observation have been for nought?

I'm not saying Mars is different. I'm saying Mars is a completely alien planet. The conditions on Mars are not exactly as they are on Earth, which has been said over and over in this thread.

What exactly do you mean by "completely alien"? Mars has a lot of similarities to Earth, and had even more in the past, when it had a thicker atmosphere and bodies of liquid water.

So, yes things that are not possible (as far as we know) here could very well be possible there. Yes, there will be similarities. But to say that everything we know to be true on Earth is the same anywhere in the Universe?

No, scientists don't reason like that. There are many major differences between different planets, moons, and "solar systems" in the universe, but the basic laws of physics apply everywhere, as far as we know.

People who think they know everything there is to know usually end up being the ones who really know nothing at all. And the scientific community does not agree with you either...if they did, we'd have no reason to explore space because what would be the point? We know it all, right? So there would be nothing to discover. Case closed. Only, we don't. And the scientists who are gathering and interpreting that data know that. They do not have tunnel vision. They are open to possibilities other than what we already know to be possible.

I never said anything about knowing everything and having no need to learn more. And I'm glad you accept that scientists know that they don't know everything, and need to constantly explore and learn more. But it's not the same as saying "absolutely anything can happen"; scientific theories and even hypotheses (educated guesses) have to come on the back of observable evidence, measurements, experiments, etc. We already know a great lot about the universe around us, and although this knowledge will be constantly refined, and sometimes theories will be superseeded, it would be foolish to discard everything we have learned up to this point.

After all, the centuries' old celestial mechanics are still as trusty and reliable in our current space missions where we send a robotic spacecraft to randezvous with a distant asteroid or comet years or even decades after the launch from earth.

originally posted by: Char-Lee
But laws of physics...

September 9, 2010
Source:
Swinburne University of Technology
Summary:
A team of astrophysicists based in Australia and England has uncovered evidence that the laws of physics are different in different parts of the universe. The report describes how one of the supposed fundamental constants of Nature appears not to be constant after all. Instead, this 'magic number' known as the fine-structure constant -- 'alpha' for short -- appears to vary throughout the universe.

www.sciencedaily.com...

So they examine one of the so-called "constants", and their verdict is that all physical constants and forces vary across the universe? Could their results be subject to an "observer's point of view", like for example something might appear to travel faster than the speed of light?

In any case, I haven't seen a landslide reaction in the scientific community to this paper, so it might not be as crucial and revolutionary as you think.

a reply to: wildespace

In any case, I haven't seen a landslide reaction in the scientific community to this paper, so it might not be as crucial and revolutionary as you think.

Qualy I simply provided the info I didn't say what I think.

What I think is that we may find there are zero laws once we learn to control things behind the observations.

a reply to: funbox
If wind on Mars is so feeble as to be able to affect nothing but the finest dust , what has created all these dunes?


www.uahirise.org...

Aeolian processes on Mars

~~~

Another possible cause for disturbance of material on Mars (such as the dark sand trickles in OP's images) is marsquakes. www.space.com...

Damp soil practically everywhere Curiosity's wheels disturbed the outer coating? Don't think so.
mars.jpl.nasa.gov...
mars.jpl.nasa.gov...
mars.jpl.nasa.gov...

It is really just darker sand. In the last image listed here, you can spot a series of tiny holes in the dark material exposed by the wheel, produced by the ChemCam laser in order to study the chemical composition of the material. Had there been liquid water there, I'm sure the instrument would've picked it up and we'd get some major news about it.

a reply to: wildespace

interesting shapes , looks like a growth or surface infections taken place *look on top of the bigger shapes* .. is this an example then of wind art in the macro/massive ?

very clever wind

funbox