If gender is in the mind and not the body, what do you think of species dysphoria?

I thought we were talking about people who think they are animals??? Why are we talking about gender identity now???

WTF does gender have to do with thinking that you're an animal???

Unless maybe you think you're a beaver!!! Sorry.....

a reply to: mOjOm

Animals identify (maybe) as male and female? Isn't gender identity the crux of the matter? lol, I have no idea. I'm just posing questions for the sake of posing them.

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: mOjOm

Animals identify (maybe) as male and female? Isn't gender identity the crux of the matter? lol, I have no idea. I'm just posing questions for the sake of posing them.

I'm not sure what animals identify as terms of sexuality. I've known dogs to hump just about everything including things that don't have any gender at all. I wouldn't say gender is the crux of the issue either, but then again I'm trying to find out what the OP means by people thinking they're animals. Humans are animals in a matter of speaking so I'm still trying to figure this out.

Also, nothing is saying that just thinking they are animals has anything to do with their gender. They might think they are an animals of the same sex that they are now so it wouldn't change.

a reply to: Cuervo

Did you know that not that many indepth psychological studies have been done on the issue? Did you know even the so-called experts only have theories as to the cause, and are still at odds with one another over the nurture-nature aspect. And because the studies are so lacking, there very well may be a similarity between gender dysphoria, species dysphoria, even body integrity identity disorder.

As far as your comment on the animal shapeshifter thing:

"Species dysphoria involves feelings of being an animal or other creatures "trapped in" a human body and so, is considered different from the traditional definition of clinical lycanthropy, in which the patient believes they have actually been transformed into an animal or have the ability to physically shapeshift." (Wikipedia)

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: Cuervo

Isn't hearing on a totally different level than gender? Can biology be so wrong as to provide a man with ovaries and a female with a penis?

Yes, biology gets that wrong too. That's what gender dysphoria is. Keep in mind, the dysphoria is just a symptom of the actual issue. The actual issue is a structural one. Providing a man with a vagina and a woman with a penis is something biology does do right alongside with conjoined twins, dwarfism, and any other number of anomalies that get treated seriously.

The only reason it's easy for the average person to accept the other anomalies is that they are obvious from birth. Transgender folks usually hide that crap (for your comfort) for as long as they can until it's not possible anymore.

People with fibromyalgia and other invisible disorders can probably relate. It's frustrating suffering from something that isn't even visible. Worse yet, making it visible makes you a target for ridicule. It's effed up beyond all reason.

originally posted by: mOjOm
I thought we were talking about people who think they are animals??? Why are we talking about gender identity now???

WTF does gender have to do with thinking that you're an animal???

Unless maybe you think you're a beaver!!!

Sorry.....

The OP made that connection with the title and content. She seems to think the two conditions have something in common.

a reply to: Cuervo

Gender dysphoria is not where a man has ovaries and a woman a penis. You are misleading. Stating it is a structural issue and is like conjoined twins or dwarfism is not entirely accurate.

People who have gender dysphoria feel strongly that they are not the gender they physically appear to be. For example, a person who has a penis and all other physical traits of a male might feel instead that he is actually a female. That person would have an intense desire to have a female body and to be accepted by others as a female. Or, someone with the physical characteristics of a female would feel her true identity is male. Feeling that your body does not reflect your true gender can cause severe distress, anxiety, and depression. "Dysphoria" is a feeling of dissatisfaction, anxiety, and restlessness. With gender dysphoria, the discomfort with your male or female body can be so intense that it can interfere with the way you function in normal life, for instance at school or work or during social activities.

www.webmd.com...

originally posted by: queenofswords
The biology textbooks have been thrown out the door when we can claim that a little snip here, a little tuck there, a mutilation of one's body along with giving yourself a new name of a different sex suddenly makes it so. When we insist that gender is all in the mind...it's how you feel and how you identify emotionally and mentally, then why not species?

Where is the dividing line?

The dividing line begins and ends with the individual who feels the way they feel. Whether or not that offends others is irrelevant. Frankly ( and speaking as a heterosexual, Christian male ) if what others do offends a person, it says more to me about the one offended than the one being discussed.

a reply to: Kangaruex4Ewe

Yes, you have good points, but also.. why are we not special to the world? i mean, on a Grand scale i understand I may not be special to the world, but believing i am nothing but "Me" changes nothing in the world. through bringing awareness and activism i may be able to help at least one other person in this world.

i don't think there is anything wrong with thinking you can change the world, i also don't think there is anything wrong with teaching Children that we are all Humans that come from different aspects of "life(whatever life is)" that we should be treated equal not based on the color of our skin or our sexuality or gender

I'm not offended by it. It's a conversation our society has initiated with all the focus in the media regarding the transition of Jenner from male to female.

In that conversation, we are now discovering that there are all kinds of dysphoria....gender, species, and BIID to mention just three.

In our endeavors to just embrace everybody's choice to be who they want to be, perhaps looking more closely at the pathology of these conditions might save people from years of mental and emotional anguish they experience trying to deal with it. Let's not sweep everything under the proverbial carpet because we are afraid to openly examine the possibility that there is something really worrisome going on.

We can still be tolerant and loving, but as I said in an earlier post, body mutilation, massive amount of hormones, wardrobe and name changing, is a mighty drastic measure and it does not change your sex...nor your species.

I like your style, O.P.!

There are neurological differences in how the male and female brain are constructed, so it is possible to have a male's brain in a female's body. So is it possible that someone has the mind of an animal?

It could be argued that people with autism think more like animals than people do. I often pretend I am a cat.

a reply to: Darth_Prime

I'm not quite sure how I have been unclear in two posts about my feelings on equality. I even posted that in my first paragraph in my reply to you. I will state it again for the record. I absolutely feel that we should all be treated equally regardless of race, gender, etc. I'm not even discussing that aspect here.

I am discussing giving children over inflated egos and sending them out into the world with false hopes and beliefs only to let others crush them because we the parents... Couldn't bear to.

I have no problem if anyone wants to think that they are special to the world, but I prefer to not teach my daughter that and then send her out into the cold, cruel, world unsuspecting and shocked when she finds out that the rest of the world doesn't even know she exists and likely doesn't care whether she continues to or not. If she passes nobody in France will mourn her. Nobody in even the next county will ever know or care. That is true for 99.99999% of us. Most of us aren't Robin Williams, JFK, etc.

She has many talents and not just because she is mine, but she will never be a geo physisist so telling her that she can is lying to her. I want her to know that she is not the same as everyone else. I want her to celebrate those differences and I don't want the rest of the world telling her that she is the same special snowflake as everyone else is. Shes not. She has her own unique talents and gifts. Her own unique downfalls and weakness like all of us. She will not need to go way beyond and do eccentric things to prove her differences to the world because she has always known that she isn't the same as everyone else.

I'm not sure how to make it any clearer than that. We all have gifts, we all have weaknesses. Some of us are smarter, some of us can paint, some of us can't read but can come up with the most beautiful poetry the world has ever heard. Continuing to teach our children that we are all super duper special and just all exactly the same leaves them feeling like they need to find ways to express themselves and step apart from the crowd. Just look at body modifications and how they have gone above and beyond as more people try to find some way to be different from everyone else. It will continue to escalate because most of us do feel the innate urge to not be like everyone else.

a reply to: queenofswords

This subject actually hits home for me pretty deeply - and I have a real world reason to have an extreme bias.

Sixteen years ago my sister met a guy that she wound up marrying. He seemed nice enough, at first. Given that we were latchkey kids, I actually gave my sister away at their wedding, rather than our father doing so. I was happy and proud.

It did not take long for the fun to end, however. The guy quickly showed a lot of pathological traits. He was a control freak. He saw himself not only as a mega-super-ultimate alpha male - but he literally would opine about how the world would be a better place if a virus killed off everyone other than his family, as he and they were vastly superior in every aspect to all of us other mere mortals. He was abusive, controlling, manipulative, hyper-judgmental, delusional, mean spirited, back-stabbing, a serial liar and basically an all around horrible person. In their first year I told her "My opinion? He's gay, in denial, and massively over compensating." That statement caused four years of estrangement.

This guy considers himself to be a modern Machiavelli, and brags constantly about how easily he pits people against one another all to his ends. Even though his machinations are obvious and on a kindergarten level of creativity, he thinks himself a genius.

Sadly my sister wound up with something akin to Stockholm Syndrome. She bought into it and drank his Kool Aid. She came to religiously believe his hype. He served in the Army but all real world indications are that he never made it out of basic and was discharged for psych reasons. BUT his version of things include:

1) Eating the cooked flesh of Republican Guard officers to instill fear in the hundreds of POW's he personally captured.
2) Invading North Korea - by himself - without permission - with an entire radio vehicle, JUST to prove it could be done. To this day he claims he is the only American to ever do so and that the NK Military still sends him messages of respect and admiration.
3) He shot at a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff because the helicopter the General arrived in stirred up dust in HIS camp ( even though he was only a Private ) - and that he not only got away with it ( because his female superior was also his lover ) but he got a medal for doing so.

Obvious BS is obvious. But I abetted the guy because my sister was married to him and she liked him.

Fast forward to two years ago. The jerk moves out and my sister starts to talk strangely. At first it's "He's taking Prozac and he's nicer now."... which leads to "Actually it's not Prozac, it's female hormone replacement therapy". Which leads to "Yes, he's undergoing gender reassignment, but he's not gay. He's a lesbian trapped in a mans body." Which just recently and finally led to "Alright, he's gay and he wants to be a woman."

Which is fine. God bless him and what he wants. I hate him and want to bash his skull into mush. But that's on me and it's not because of his sexuality. It's because he abused my sister and her kids for 16 years. He also caused me a LOT of personal problems during that time in the course of playing his "games". He sabotaged a relationship I was in, he tried to ruin my credit, and he filed a few "anonymous" false reports to the local cops that got me harassed.

This guys father is a very, very right wing Christian - which is why the guy says he was so afraid of coming out.

If that fear had not existed... if he had NOT been afraid of being who he was, would he have turned out to be such an ass? I'm left thinking we'd all have been better off if he'd have simply felt safe saying "I'm gay" from day one and not trying to pretend he wasn't.

a reply to: Hefficide

Of course it is the persons right to feel "be *whatever". Nevertheless, I feel insulted that I should HAVE to accept that that person is.. "a water faucet" (yes, that happened).

It seems to me that this kind of person so intensely wants to be a certified "special snowflake" that they would literally do anything on the internet to be recognized.

15 minutes of fame, maybe?

Or maybe"I feel ugly, lets have the world recognize me for something that I am *really really NOT*"


As I said, I feel messed about with. I don't have to praise that this person is the Eiffel tower, or wants to marry it, or wants to be a bolt of it.

I accept that they have the right to feel so, but they have to accept that I have the right to seriously doubt their emanated feelings.

a reply to: Kangaruex4Ewe

i know, i wasn't Questioning your stance on Equality, and you make many good points, in fact i think we borderline on some issues maybe, just thought different, or typed out.

a reply to: EternalSolace

Can biology be so wrong as to provide a man with ovaries and a female with a penis?

Of course not, it's all down to somebody eating an apple, isn't it?

Can biology be so wrong as to produce a boy with no ears?

a reply to: mOjOm

I'm trying to find out what the OP means by people thinking they're animals.

The OP means people thinking they're animals of a different species from Homo Sapiens. Not that hard to work out, really.

Didn't Kyles dad suffer from this and had himself transformed into a dolphin? (or a jewfin as Cartman put it, lol.)

I can understand gender issues, for the most part, men and women are the same species.....but to feel like you are another animal? It doesn't make sense to me to be honest.

Mind you, I reckon a lot of people out there must think they are sheep...

a reply to: ManFromEurope

There's the rub. You don't have to accept anybody. You have every right to simply ignore them and let them be whoever or whatever they wish to be. As long as their choices do not directly effect your ability to be who you want to be there is no issue.

Sadly what we are getting out of this and similar arguments is ridiculousness on both sides of the issue. On the right you get the Religious fundamentalist concept that others being themselves is unacceptable because it is an affront to God - and therefore an active slap in the face of the religious. On the right the social justice crowd has gotten so convoluted that it's even weirder. In fact tonight I read an article about Bruce Jenner, written by a lesbian feminist, who went OFF on the transgendered - stating they have NO RIGHT to steal what it means to be a woman... and that men in drag have never been oppressed, date-raped, enslaved, sexually objectified second class citizens like REAL women.. and, therefore, they are an affront to REAL gay people and the truly oppressed minorities.

I kid you not.

Ultimately the come away that I see is simple. People tend to lash out at whatever is different without much real reason. We fear and hate that which doesn't look like our own reflection in the mirror - and it's been that way for a long time.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: mOjOm

I'm trying to find out what the OP means by people thinking they're animals.

The OP means people thinking they're animals of a different species from Homo Sapiens. Not that hard to work out, really.

Ya I kinda figured that. I mean do they think they are dogs or cats or horses or something??? Like a certain kind of animal or just like a beast of some kind. As in do they bark and piss on your leg or just grunt and bump into things??

I kinda lost interest when it became about gender.